There are a lot of similarities between what George Orwell wrote about, and the Jehovahs Witnesses.
Watchtower fined in Belgium
by Vanderhoven7 66 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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StephaneLaliberte
becoming a JW is a voluntary association.
I don't think people who sign up to become JWs truly understand what shunning is all about. Sure, they certainly mention it, but never really go into the details, or when they do, they do it so briefly that it is difficult to grasp its true nature.
They make it sound like the people being disfellowshipped are truly bad people, on par with murderers, adulterers, violent alcoholics and lying deceitful cunning sinners that actively want to harm you. They make it sound like a good thing, for your protection! They dehumanize them. As for the others, well, its only a brief temporary disciplinary measure; they’ll be back in a year or so.
Newcomers generally fail to grasp that disfellowshipping is not about the sin, its about the adherence to the group membership. Consider that many people get disfellowshipped for some sin they eventually stop practicing, and yet, their shunning continues to the end of their lives. They are not shunned because of what they did, they are shunned because they did not try to get back into the group. And so, the group simply takes the position that the person must still be actively practicing some sin or another. For instance, think of all the young ones who got disfellowshipped for practicing fornication and have since married; yet, they remain shunned by their family.
We can also doubt that new commers grasp the following possibilities: When you get baptized today, you agree with several teachings and practices that will change over the years to come. You may not agree with some of those changes and refuse to remain a JW. Or perhaps, as you study into greater depth the history of your religion and the basis of its teachings, you may choose to leave the group. Then again, you will be treated as a relentless sinner, a perpetual evil doer and loose contact with all of your JWs connections (friends and family).
Absurd situations like these will happen because all these people will not have the right to make this assessment for themselves, or to review their position over time. They are ordered by their religion to do this and as a result, the majority of them entirely avoid the process of thinking and considering the matter; there is no options, only the one that is ordered.
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vienne
Being informed is a personal responsibility. Unfortunately, many people "do not read the fine print". But Jehovah's Witnesses are still a voluntary association.
Children raised as Witnesses are free to leave when they become of age. Many do, and many leave before they are of age. That someone was baptized as a youth does not bind them to the association for life. My grandmother converted from Catholicism to Jehovah's Witnesses when my mom was still fairly young. My mom attended meetings with her because in the Austrian/German culture in which she was raised the belief was that you honored your parents that way. Mom was not persuaded or converted, and though she had a Bible based faith it wasn't the Witness faith. When she was of age, she stopped attending. I attend with relatives on occasion. The Witness faith is unconvincing. Being dragged along by friends, relatives or near family does not change the fact that religious association is in Western lands, voluntary association.
Dr. Introvigne's interest in Vampire mythology is academic, not Satanist. Engaging in ad hominem does not refute an argument. You may disagree with his approach, but he isn't a 'cult apologist' but a rational academic who, like most academics in his field, rejects the descriptors 'cult' and 'sect.' If you listen to his conference presentations, you would not find him to be a cult apologist. Not buying into the anti-cult movement with all its misrepresentations does not make him an apologist. He is a Catholic.
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vienne
re the Botting's book. Have you read it? Can you have confidence in a book that points to 1944 instead of 1914? And yes, I've read it. My mom's library has a significant amount of anti-Witness material. I've read it all. Some of it is interesting. Much of it is nonsense.
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slimboyfat
What do you mean by “points to 1944 instead of 1914”? Have you got a page number?
It’s flawed in many ways, but still a very interesting book, in my view.
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vienne
silmb,
When commenting on W. Miller, Heather and Gary Botting: The Orwellian World of Jehovah’s Witnesses, University of Toronto Press, Toronto, 1984, page 36. To my eye this is sloppy research and worse self-editing. That makes the rest of this book open to question.
I miss stated the case. They point to 1944 instead of 1844. And more accurately it should have been 1843.
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Phizzy
" A Voluntary Association" in the bald interpretation of what they are yes. But the whole Court Case is about the dreadful Shunning that occurs when a person of any age decides to leave.
This is a serious issue, it has resulted in a large number committing suicide, it is no joke, nor to be taken lightly. It also is against the Human Rights of the person. The Right to a Family Life for one.
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vienne
A truly Democratic society recognizes freedom to choose or reject associates. We may not like the choices others make about us, but it is their right to make them. Hurt feelings are not sufficient reason to overturn this basic right. It is not a human right to negate another's choice to shun us. If we take that away from a religious association we also take it away from a mother who will not see her grossly criminal child.
Does it hurt to be shunned? Absolutely. Is it their right to do so? Just as absolutely. Wanting a court to cancel the right to chose associations is as dictatorial as anything the Watchtower does.
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vienne
"It has resulted in a large number committing suicide."
I would find it difficult to prove this. Can you?
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Rivergang
Well said, Phizzy.
There are "Voluntary associations", and there are "Voluntary associations". Extricating oneself from a high-control group such as the Jehovahs Witnesses is not nearly as straight forward a process as it may first seem to be (particularly to those whose understanding of such matters is of a more superficial nature).
Sadly, too, you are quite correct about the number of suicides which result from their cruel policy of shunning. Sad as it is, it shouldn't be any great surprise, and is also seen amongst other high-control groups who similarly practice shunning (such as the Exclusive Brethren). Each one of those persons who thus commits suicide is just as dead as anybody who in previous centuries was burned at the stake or stoned to death.
Religious freedom is not absolute. That is the only reason why heretics are no longer burned at the stake for infringement of "theocratic" rules.