by Simon 43 Replies latest forum announcements
I agree Simon,
It's good to break up discussions with other subjects besides what's happening in jw land.
I think that Trump era politics have, and will continue to seed discussions that, while starting with good intentions, end up devolving into toxicity. Not just here but on every forum. I think a lot of people are a bit over it.
Although I think there are far, far more cases of people taking "retribution" against people voting for Trump than vice-versa. Either way, anyone doing this is an idiot.
I know that's what you "think". It is not the case however. Make an account to read. https://www.jstor.org/stable/43783825?seq=1
Straw-man. There are more options than a rigid, structured debate format or else a free-for-call where insults and name calling is allowed. Like maybe a normal discussion by sensible resonable people.
Go back to the discussions and remind yourself of the tract record. Who engaged in name calling, and insulting language, both sides. There really isn't many options, people typically descend to the worst behavior when they are upset.
The only thing I'm not allowing is the unrelated, drive-by, insults that are always variations on "but, but, Orange Man BAD!". THAT is what get's boring.
And that is how it is being heard.
Right, but we don't have to follow most other platforms which allow conservatives to be discriminated against just because they support Trump.
How about protecting those of other political positions? Are their feelings less worthy of your concern? Every one would benefit from changes to how we deal with overheated politics.
How about protecting those of other political positions? Are their feelings less worthy of your concern? Every one would benefit from changes to how we deal with overheated politics.
I still don't think you quite get it. How are they not protected in the same way? The difference is that there is less of a Biden derangement syndrome than there is TDS, so it's less of a problem. If you believe your political opinion or party is being unfairly criticized without reason, point it out.
There is a big difference between "I think your choice sucks because of policy X" and "I think your choice sucks because TRUMP!!!"
They are NOT the same thing. If you have an issue with someone supporting Trump, you have to reason why. Just saying "Trump" isn't any kind of reason. Saying "Trump's Racist" is just a variation of the same - you have to say why - what policy exactly? And this is where it inevitably falls apart - because people can't, or they trot out the already discredited BS and because we're not willing to allow that then they get upset and start claiming that THEY are the ones being victimized.
It seems like you are deliberately and willfully not understanding, so I think this discussion is over because there is no point to it and it's already been explained in plenty of detail.
I still don't think you quite get it.
I get it. Do a search for how many hostile and insulting times the names Clinton,Obama and AOC have been used as an abbreviation for a whole narrative of perceived crimes. You will find at least as many. Kettle black my friend. This why these topics have to be reserved for specific political areas and then have rules of behavior enforced consistently.
I get it.
I really don't think you do.
Do a search for how many hostile and insulting times the names Clinton,Obama and AOC have been used as an abbreviation for a whole narrative of perceived crimes. You will find at least as many.
It doesn't mean politicians and policies are above criticism. And it's easy to just count what you want to see, you don't count the things removed or the requests for people not to post things, because ..., well, "inconvenient".
Kettle black my friend. This why these topics have to be reserved for specific political areas and then have rules of behavior enforced consistently.
Right, and this is me being consistent. I'm calling out what is happening NOW, just as I've called things out and taken action on the opposite side in the past.
Keep seeing what you want to see my friend, keep demanding perfection and 100% consistency in an inconsistent world.
Ok, let’s give it a shot.
We do want to understand you.
Here we go: It was never about Trump. It was, and is, always about policy.
When Trump would say “They aren’t attacking me, they are attacking you,” his supporters agreed. He was trying to move the country away from the leftist cliff edge. He represents a stand against the utter cultural, political, and economic rot coming our way.
@peacefulpete:
To augment my previous post, here is a post from a different thread, started right after the after the election. Others on the site said that they just wanted to understand our viewpoint. Time and time again that thread went back to Trump personally, his character, his past, basically “orange man bad” arguments.
———————
You aren't listening. You aren't being serious - which is fine. That seems to be the pattern here.
@millie had a good illustration either in this thread or a different (can't remember right now): If your child was sick and needed a surgery, a complicated surgery, right now, and you had to choose between doctors:
1) A very experience and capable doctor that has done the needed surgery many times, no casualties. But he's not so charming. Maybe he's had 5 wives. Generally a jerk. Maybe rough around the edges. Hell, let's just say (even though this doesn't map with Trump) he's got a grand dragon KKK hood in his office.
or
2) A doctor everyone loves. Charismatic, nice. But loses 1/2 his patients.
Which would you choose? Would you really care so much about doctor #1's faults? There are more pressing issues, and those faults can be set aside for the moment.
I've said it this way:
A man is wheeled into the ER with massive wounds everywhere, perhaps due to a car accident. The ER doctor starts to fix the small cut on the patient's hand while he bleeds out due to the massive chest wounds. How do you feel about this ER doctor?
Focusing on Trump's charisma and his personality is like focusing in on the small cut. There are bigger issues to deal with. There are bigger problems to address in order to prevent death. The left is undermining general western principles. It has been happening for quite some time, but it is accelerated now.
Let me try it this way:
If Biden were to come out tomorrow and say: "Ok guys, we've been a bit stupid. No more identity politics. This systemic racism stuff is garbage. We need to promote systems based on merit. It is not a sign of "whiteness" to get up in the morning and hold a job, to delay gratification and save money. Frankly, we've been pushing real racism for a while and need to back off that. Also, the assault on fossil fuels is a bit exaggerated and we're going to kill a lot of people if we do this. Markets are good, and we have too much regulation, and we have to get our debt under control. And ... let's be honest, the COVID thing was a scare tactic. And good lord, the news media is flat out garbage now, always stoking racial tensions. I mean, CNN is more like the Onion than a news network. And don't get me started with the Green New Deal - that is a document only mentally retarded people take seriously. And, in general, some very western civ values, like freedom of speech and the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' are actually good things."
There are many more things, but if he said stuff like this, hell, *** I *** would have voted for him.
So try again: It is NOT about Trump. It is about POLICY.
OK, Mr M.... Trump told you that when critics rebuked and condemned his dishonesty and abuse of power they were really attacking you. Doesn't that sound like a confidence man's line, when said out loud?
It was never about Trump. It was, and is, always about policy.
What policy? He had no policy. He had slogans and mottos. His economics were anything but conservative and free market.
He did tap into a number of undercurrents in America. He had lots of time to create a persona and messages to appeal.
White low income discontent believed he was going to be their man, middle income Capitalist idealists many of whom already believed in "leftist" conspiracies believed he would uproot a cabal of communists and Islamists, and of course the always ugly racist anti immigrant crowd believed he would support their agenda. No, not everyone who were attracted to him bought into all these messages but together, along with Republican party faithful, they were enough in 2016. He told them each exactly what they wanted to hear. He would save America from the evil "others" that threatened their jobs and conspired to change the country in ways that made them uncomfortable.
In reality his tax cuts during an already thriving economy only benefitted the rich and added huge unnecessary additional debt that will burden the economy for decades. Corporate profit soared, The stock market is now completely detached from reality. His trade fiascos, made hay with his base but in reality deeply hurt manufacturers and farmers. In the end his ballyhooed USMCA is really just Nafta with some minor renegotiations that could have been done without the disruptions and turmoil. His rollback of environmental regulation added zero jobs but will disadvantage America in the new energy markets. Immigration reform was simply knee jerk and ill-conceived and just needlessly cruel. The Republicans unconstitutionally blocked court nominations till they had a Republican in office so Trump now brags about having stacked the courts for conservatives. His loyalty was not earned it was the product of manipulation of social unrest and distrust of authorities. His deeply flawed character was acknowledged by a majority of supporters in a recent poll. So to those of us not under his spell, your support is truly bewildering.
Sorry my Dad just fell and was taken to the hospital minutes ago.
MeanMrMustard
In your examples of which Doctor one might prefer to do surgery, you left out the unlikable, philandering Doctor who botched 6 operations and was still chosen to do the operation. It seems the result would be foreseeable.
The reason this is a losing argument, Uzzah, is because all the same things can be said about the anti-Trump crowd.
Doesn't the psychology of mass movements (i.e. As described by Eric Hoffer and others) apply just as much to one side of the political spectrum as the other?
