Making Friends with Babylon the Great: Watchtower’s New Goal

by raymond frantz 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Journeyman
    Journeyman
    This is nothing less than WT admittling that they never believed the old filty whore schtick about churches, just as they never believed the fear porn about the UN being the wild beast of Satan when they agreed to support UN objectives while they were listed as a UN NGO.

    It's not quite as simple as that. It's quite possible for someone to believe two or more contradictory things - most of us do in some aspect or other of our life, whether religion, politics, our working life or whatever.

    So within the JW org there are those, from top to bottom, who DO believe (and have always done so) that all other religions are "Babylon the Harlot", and that the UN is the prophesied "image of the Beast". The official teaching is still that all political elements will come together to attack JWs, so although it is less overtly stated that the UN will lead that attack, it is clearly still doctrine that the majority, if not all, of nations will come together to fight against God, which is basically the UN by any other name (or its successor, should there be such an organisation). JW teaching is still clear that the UN as an organisation is heading into oblivion because it fundamentally opposes God.

    However, what IS happening is a lack of unity and clarity over many beliefs that used to be "set in stone". This is because the apparently ironclad certainty of Fred Franz's teachings before the 1990s has broken down and there is no longer such total consensus from the top down. I think it is these divisions and schisms that have led to the radical changes we have seen since the 2010s - "new" NWT bible, dumping of "types and anti-types", videos everywhere, JW televangelist Broadcasting channel, "original" songs, changes on ministry and fashions, and who knows what else to come - and was possibly even behind AMIII's departure from the GB.

    Where it's going, who knows, but sooner or later the Org is going to get itself openly caught in a contradictory "Catch 22" kind of bind over its past, present and potential future teachings. It's already approaching that with the whole supposed justification for the total "divine authority" of the GB. The cracks have started to show since the Australian Royal Commission and then the WT where they admitted to not being "infallible". As time goes on and they have to concede more and more - including probably to secular courts and governments - their assumed unique spiritual position will look increasingly shaky, and once that goes, all the other reasons - the "incentives to stay" that Vidiot mentioned - will collapse.

    The JW org has been so certain of its "destiny" up until recently, that I suspect the GB are now panicking behind closed doors, wondering what they should do to buy more time before they expect God to save them. I think at least a significant number of key figures still believe those main doctrines about Babylon and the UN, but they are trying to play clever - "theocratic warfare" - and please all sides, especially to protect the cashflow. That's bound to end badly, either way, since they've neither been honest with the "wordly" organisations, nor true to their own teachings (which, if true, would mean they have been doing exactly what they accuse "Babylon" of doing and "sharing with the world", which would displease God and Jesus too).

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    Journeyman most accurate explanation of their current state

    The JW org has been so certain of its "destiny" up until recently, that I suspect the GB are now panicking behind closed doors, wondering what they should do to buy more time before they expect God to save them.
  • blondie
    blondie

    Reporting not supporting

    Note the WTS dances around again about what interfaith is; interestingly a congregation buying a building once used for religious reasons is not interfaith because it is a "one-time transaction." "Thus, an act of interfaith is that of sharing in worship or of having spiritual communion with other religious organizations." "In working out the details regarding such a purchase, contact with the other party should be kept to a minimum and should be strictly business" WT 2002 10/15 p. 27 https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002767

    Note the WTS dances around again about what interfaith; interestingly a congregation buying a building once used for religious reasons is not interfaith because it is a "one-time transaction." "In working out the details regarding such a purchase, contact with the other party should be kept to a minimum and should be strictly business" "Thus, an act of interfaith is that of sharing in worship or of having spiritual communion with other religious organizations." WT 2002 10/15 p. 27 https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002767

    Keep in mind that specially selected elders can participate in a forum where other representatives of other religions do the same, it is not a debate. Most often another entity invites jws to participate, but the WTS has to approve and pick the presenter. I can’t find a link specifically to this, but I know from such jw presenters that this is how it works. The WTS carefully monitors what that jw representative will say.

  • blondie
  • blondie
    blondie

    Black Sheep, can you post the hard to find quote in the April 2025 article?

  • raymond frantz
  • KerryKing
    KerryKing

    I will when I find my notes, WEF also had links I think if I remember correctly

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    raymond frantz - “…the Watchtower is once again proving itself to be a master of adaptation…”

    No offense, Ray, but I wouldn’t call them that.

    If they really were “masters of adaptation”, this would’ve already happened, and we wouldn’t have even noticed until afterward.

  • blondie
    blondie
    raymond frantz, evidently they aren't speaking about elders meetings where they start shouting at each other and avoid each other outside that room. Many elder bodies like that over my 50 years. One congregation had 2 elders from another congregation come into "referee." Finally, the WTS made 2 congregations and put the fighting elders in opposite congregations. I even know of congregations that never exchanged speakers, why, because the elder arranging the schedule hated the other elder doing that in the other congregation. One finally died and suddenly after 10 years, speakers started being exchanged....I know many accounts like this. Few jws know what goes on behind closed doors. I remember one 2 where the elder body had taken a vote, where the then congregation overseer did not want the proposal and all the other elders voted for it. The congregation overseer got up at the next service meeting and announced the body had voted against the proposal. One elder stood up in that meeting and said the congregation overseer was lying. Guess who was invited not to be an elder any more.
  • Biahi
    Biahi

    Blondie, interesting about what is and isn’t interfaith. Based on what you reported WT said, it should NOT be a problem if a brother who is a plumber fixes a toilet in the Catholic Church. Whereas, previously, they did say that a brother would not be able to do that. 🤷‍♀️

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