Ven,
I will agree with your last point. No one should put people down for their intelligence or lack there of. I have known some really smart people and I have known some less intelligent people. I did not judge them on their intelligence, rather I based my judgement on their trustworthyness. How good were they, as people, meant a whole lot to me.
WHY DONT MORE BLACK @ OTHER NATIONALITYS POST ON THIS BOARD
by nightwarrior 101 Replies latest jw experiences
-
larc
-
Brummie
and I have known some less intelligent people
and I guess these were the black ones huh?
brummie
-
AlanF
As usual, there is a good deal of misinterpretation and thin-skinned-ness going on here. Hopefully my comments will shed some light.
Nilfun points it out perfectly well with his quotes from old WTS literature, which is quoted as mentioning "the greater intelligence and aptitude of the Caucasian". Nilfun comments: "Perhaps he is simply looking for those that share a "common bond" : the experience of being a "non-white" person in a racist organization." Precisely correct, for 1933! The old men who ran the Watchtower Society in the 1930s were a product of a racist American culture based in New York City. No wonder they tolerated the ridiculous statements made by Woodworth and company in The Golden Age! These were perfectly in line with their cultural prejudices.
Larc also said:
: I don't think the quotes of the past regarding blacks should be used to criticize the organization of today. I think that the Witnesses are pretty egalitarian, when it comes to race. I think a measure of that is the fact that they have a high percentage of blacks in their community.
There is no question about that. I grew up as a JW in the New York area and, while there was certainly friction between black and white elders of competing congregations, it was always controlled, and Brooklyn was always the last resort. For many years I attended congregations that were largely white, or largely black, or completely mixed. My most respected mentor was a black man that, to this day, I have extremely mixed feelings about (obviously I am a white boy). No one can tell me that the Watchtower Society itself is not egalitarian, because I've experienced their egalitarian braindeadness for myself.
In many parts of the U.S. JWs are thought of as a "black religion" by a majority of the white community. This false notion goes entirely contrary to the notion that JWs are racist. In the early 1970s, the Watchtower Society took strong steps to integrate blacks and whites in the American South. Up to that point, race was simply not an issue, from the earliest time I can remember (ca. 1960) until I became inactive as a JW (ca. 1983). In the last round of Governing Body appointments, in the year 2000, one black man, Samuel Herd, was appointed to the JW Governing Body. While I strongly suspect that this appointment was the result of many years of criticism by JW critics, I also think that it was politically expedient for the Ted Jaracz crowd to place a black man on the GB -- no matter what the rest of the GB might think of Samuel Herd.
I will also observe that the most successful black men in the Watchtower organization (such as J. R. Brown of the Department of Public Information (read: Bagdhad Bob with a WTS hat) have prostituted themselves to the Governing Body just as surely as have most all other JW elders.
: By the way, the quote you highligted regarding the intellence of blacks is true, whether you like it or not, or whether it is politicly correct or not.
Larc's unadorned comment certainly sounds bad -- indeed, politically incorrect -- but when one examines societal pressures and so forth, as well as objective school test scores, it is hard to argue with the overall conclusion. The simple fact is: blacks achieve lower test scores than whites in a variety of areas. But I think that this has nothing to do with race, but everything to do with the fact that blacks in the U.S have developed culturally in a different way than whites. have. So when school test scores indicate that blacks are less culturally savvy than whites, and perhaps less technically educated than whites, this should be no surprise. Indeed, it ought to be a political goal to rectify this situation, since it seems obvious that there is no difference between races intellectually or on any other basis, except political.
Some specific comments:
Azalo, I don't think that Larc said that Caucasians are smarter than other races inherently. Indeed, the facts of American education, its faults and its successes, such as they are, show that on the whole, education tends toward the right direction. That does not mean that it is perfect, and certainly not in any specific case. For a year (1999-2000) I lived in a suburban New York area where my daughter attended high school. It was about 65% black, and the level of education was extremely good. The typical graduating class had about 2/3 of the students going on to college. Run that by me again? As much as 2/3 of a 65% black school district going on to college? Come on! Must be a fairy tale! Right? Not at all. I lived there. My daughter was in school there. I know.
Larc also said:
: Well, whether you like it or not, it is truth, the average IQ of blacks is lower than whites. The reason for this has been debated by many serious researchers. To question me is to question objective facts. I am simply pointing out the facts. That does not make me a racist.
These comments are simply beyond dispute. But the raw reality behind them shows that certain forces have indeed influenced American politics to the extent that facts have little or nothing to do with what political entities actually do. A case in point is the recent and various political (and often death-dealiing) stances taken by various forces in Africa. Anyone who thinks that the public announcements from either side represent reality is simply naive. In the U.S., blacks have been horribly abused for 400 years. As a race they have only had fair political representation for at most 140 years. For any number of reasons, a supposed "black culture" has developed (really an urban subculture not especially respresentative of American black society as a whole) that has a stereotype that I will not go into here, but that most every reader will have no trouble understanding.
The high-tech company I work for is a good illustration of the race-blind stance of many modern companies. According to rather ancient American prejudices, the Chinese are ignorant louts who have nothing to contribute to anything beyond pig farming. But my personal experience is quite different. More than half the engineers in my specific area are foriegn-born, and they are key to my company's procuctivity. A Chinese graduate student from Beijing has, under a corporate license, helped develop a major improvement in certain technical areas. I personally would not care one whit if this student happened to be white, black, yellow, blue, green or red, as long as he produced saleable products. Nor does academia; your race or color these days happens to be more of a ticket to entrance than one of exclusion. I know, once again from personal experience. In other words, you have the skills? My company will proabably hire you.
AlanF
-
larc
Hey Brummie,
That was a very bad comment on your part. My daugther's husband's father is a retired civil engingeer. His mother is a retired school teacher. My son's wife's father is a minister. So what is your beef about me any way? -
Prisca
According to rather ancient American prejudices, the Chinese are ignorant louts who have nothing to contribute to anything beyond pig farming.
Interesting observation regarding the Chinese. Here in Australia, the Chinese are regarded as hard-working, skilled, ambitious people who will compete with anyone in order to get the good jobs. It is not unusual now to see Asian names amongst the highest-scoring university results, or in highly-technical jobs.
Does that mean that they are more intelligent? Maybe. But I think it has more to do with their culture, where money and success mean more than it does in Western white cultures. There is much pressure on their children to do well at school, so they can go on to university and have a successful career. To do so brings honor to the family name and the community.
-
larc
AlanF,
Thank you for you very long and thoughtful commentary.
Why does one group, score higher than another, or lower, and does it matter to you and your friends. I think not.
The fact is that Asians score the highest, the Jews come in second, followed my the average white guy, followed by the Hispanics, and then followed by the blacks.
So, does these facts really make a difference in your life? I hope not. After all, we are people, living and getting along with people. We live and trust those who are intelligent and trustworthy, and race should have nothing to do with it. -
LyinEyes
Prisca what you said about the Chinese culture is soooooo true.
My son Jake , has an internet and pen pal that is from there.........let me tell you this kid studies all the time,,,,,,,,,,Jake and his friends from here(usa) are always talking about their out of school activities and what they want to do , and Kev, the chinese young man,,,,,,,,,,,is always talking about his studies,,,,,,and he is brilliant. He taught himself english, and can write it almost as well,as he speaks it.
He wants to come and stay with us one of these days, but I told Jake his parents would probably not like him when he gets home,,,,,,,,he will be so spoiled and lazy ,,,,,lol. American kids do love their hobbies, sports , hanging with friends, etc. in contrast to alot of the Chinese kids who are , like you said, very much into planning for the future and not alot of frills and thrills.As a side note about the topic discussed,,,,,,,,IMO,,,,,,, I have always seen this board mainly as a place with great diversity in cultures more than the color of skin, or even heritage. I guess sense we all seem to have our heritage as JW's at one time and now exjws, the differences that show up most of all is just our location on the map and those kinds of cultural differences. There are many wonderful differences in all of us, and I am so thankful for the chance to get to know so many from other states here in the USA, in other countries, etc.
Dede, of the mixed breed American Indian/French/Irish, ExJW, GirlPower Class
-
nilfun
Precisely correct, for 1933!
Yes, since then, racism in the organization has gone the way of the zoot suit.
I guess somebody better revise this page, eh? ---> http://www.freeminds.org/african/african.htm
How would anyone except a gay/lesbian know what it is like to be gay/lesbian and a JW?
How would anyone except a "person of color" know what it is like to experience being a "person of color" and a JW?
Again, perhaps this was all this fellow was looking for: those that share a "common bond" : the experience of being a "non-white" person in a racist organization.
Just a guess.
-
safe4kids
Hi, (((Alan))) (it's Brenda writing still),
I guess I can't really argue with the Witnesses having made a real effort in the 70's to fully integrate Southern U.S. kingdom halls, because I lived in the North and wasn't very involved with the Witnesses at that time. (The JWs were just beginning to impinge on my world and the Kingdom Hall and Conventions I attended were very much integrated.) However, I did have an experience in field service once which made me realize how ignorant I was of the Society's views on Blacks: I was invited into a woman's living room and was asked to please explain to her why the Society, which claims to be God's one true organization and prides itself on unity and brotherhood, kept kingdom halls and assembly halls in the South segregated (although they did integrate the district conventions, they had separate sections, washrooms and fountains, according to her). I had no ready answer. No KMS school had ever tackled this objection that I knew of; I was a bit nonplussed. I told her that Witnesses likely were obeying the rules of the states and that I was sure that as soon as the laws were changed, the Kingdom Halls were integrated. Your information seems to back up this assumption of mine. But she may have been a secret apostate! ;) She asked me if the Witnesses believed in obeying God's law rather than men's. Of course, I said yes. And wasn't God impartial? Yes. So shouldn't Jehovah's Witnesses have "taken the lead" in making sure that all God's children worshipped together no matter what secular law was in the South? Well, she sure had me there! All that was left for me to do was to apologize to her on behalf of the Society if she had been stumbled by the Society's stand on the matter. (Thank GOD I didn't know about any of those STUPID quotes cited on page 1 of this thread!!!) I left red-faced and ashamed.
Larc,
I think Prisca and Lyin' are right in their characterization of the modern world view of Asians, including the American world view, although I realize that Chinamen were good for building railroads, and that's about it, at one point in our country's history. (I never realized the Chinese were pig farmers! My bad!)
The Jews are one of those cultures I was thinking of when I mentioned above that certain cultures place a premium on education. And your rundown of who scores highest to lowest in broad terms reflects, I think, the juxtaposition of the emphasis on education by the majority of humans of Asian / Jewish / Caucasian ethnicity with the primary cultural emphasis on basic needs of food, clothing, shelter (and urban survival despite drive by shootings, stray bullets, drug trade, high crime rates) by those humans who have been historically downtrodden, kept impoverished.
I am glad that AlanF cleared up that you weren't declaring Blacks to be inherently intellectually inferior. You weren't, right?
outnfree
-
Brummie
So what is your beef about me any way?
I honestly dont have any beef with you larc, perhaps I just responded to some comment you made about black people being less intelligent or something. What I said to you seemed consistant with what you were saying throughout...sorry if I offended you, does it sound less offensive when you say it?
That was a very bad comment on your part
Sure, but there seems to be a lot of bad comments flying around on this thread and mine was just to highlight the worst ones..
nilfun pretty much summed things up nicely.
Brummie