A new book on the JW's by Hartman

by Jerry Bergman 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

AlanF

I thought that my post answered your question, Skally. But here you go:
: Is it possible to 'become' apostate long after disfellowshipment? I mean, I was not, by definition, 'apostate' then ('77). How is it I 'became' so NOW, by my old congregations definition...'APOSTATE'??
Yes. According to my quote from the Flock book:
Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment; it involves teaching false doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its holidays or interfaith activities... Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated people... Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.
That means that any ex-JW who criticizes the Watchtower is an apostate, according to their self-serving definition. You and I do that, so we're "apostates" in the eyes of JWs.
But note the self-serving nature of their definition: Truth is not a part of it; it only depends on what the Governing Body declares is true for the moment: "Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses". In other words, "Bible truth" is whatever Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
According to this cracked logic, once upon a time the Bible taught that God lives on a star in the Pleiades constellation, that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was "God's great Stone Witness", that vaccinations were against the eternal law of God, that taking blood fractions was against the law of God, that "the generation of 1914" would end within one generation of 1914, and on and on and on.
So being labeled by JWs as an apostate means simply that you express your disagreement with their ridiculous teachings.
AlanF
sf

Hey, pardon my oral aggressions there Alan.
Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment; it involves teaching false doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its holidays or interfaith activities... Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated people... Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.
ROFLOLOL...me, sKallywagger, teaching FALSE DOCTRINE? Hahahaha Deliberatly spread legs yes. Lies, no! lolololol
Thanks Alan, that was priceless.
Actually though I want to go a bit 'deeper', if you don't mind:
I was not disfellowshiped for these reasons though...then. I did not commit sins of apostacy ....then. Only now, longggggg after I've been severd from the Whore's tits. So if I was cast out ....then not for apostacy, how can they classify me now as one when I am not a member and haven't been for nearly 26 years.
Basically, am I 'apostate' in the eyes of Ted and Dan and Ralph now? And why, if I was never re-instated?
Please read this carefully Alan before replying as it is one of those inquiries that will take me a bit to comprehend.
Thank you for appreciating it's (my) merits.
sKally
Francois

Did you notice this...?
"...Consequently, of his own accord he professed himself towards God as his witness and subsequently got baptized in public. At some point the person concerned ended up forgetting his devotion to God..."
Did (damn, I can't shut off the friggin yellow), ahem, where was I? Oh, yeah, I thought I was professing myself towards God as his witness, not as an intellectual slave to the WTBTS.
Next, the quote above says the person ended up "...forgetting his devotion to God..." Balderdash. My devotion to God has done nothing but grow stronger. It's my unwillingness to blindly follow the false prophet in Brooklyn they're all pist off about. Has nothing to do with God.
Alan has said it aright; the JWs have come up with a totally self-serving definition.
I would hate to have their karma, and have to stand before the REAL God and answer for all the broken families, suicides, and God knows what all else this bunch of misdirected creeps have done.
francois
AlanF

Hi Skally,
: Hey, pardon my oral aggressions there Alan.
No problem. I understand you. I think. :-)
:: Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment; it involves teaching false doctrines...
: ROFLOLOL...me, sKallywagger, teaching FALSE DOCTRINE? Hahahaha Deliberatly spread legs yes. Lies, no! lolololol
Well, anything that contradicts JW teaching is a lie, you know.
: I was not disfellowshiped for these reasons though...then. I did not commit sins of apostacy ....then. Only now, longggggg after I've been severd from the Whore's tits. So if I was cast out ....then not for apostacy, how can they classify me now as one when I am not a member and haven't been for nearly 26 years.
You're asking for logic from JWs, and you won't get it. While any normal person understands that disfellowshipping is a casting of a person out of an organization, the Society views all ex-JWs as still vaguely connected with the organization. An elder told me the other day that the Society even considers DF'd people still to be JWs. If you're DF'd for sexual sins, you're not considered an apostate. But since you're always considered somewhat connected, if you sink down to apostasy after you've been DF'd or have otherwise been out for a long time, you can still be viewed by JWs as an apostate. In your case, if you express criticism of the JWs to your JW mother, then she'll automatically consider you an apostate based on this stupid notion, even though she would probably not consider someone who never was a JW an apostate for expressing identical criticisms. On the other hand, some people are not DF'd but are considered apostates. I'm one of them (I haven't been DF'd because I've been inactive for 20 years, and they know very well that they'd have a hell of a lawsuit on their hands if they did). Go figure.
: Basically, am I 'apostate' in the eyes of Ted and Dan and Ralph now? And why, if I was never re-instated?
You'll have to ask them about that (it's easy to do; just call Brooklyn Bethel at 718-560-5000 and authoritatively ask to speak with them; who is Ralph, BTW?). Except in the case of a few high-profile apostates, such labeling is done mostly on an individual or congregational level. It has to be, since if it becomes known that a person has been officially labeled an apostate, there could be serious legal repercussions via charges of libel and slander.
AlanF
sf

No problem. I understand you. I think.

Roflol...that is THE problem! I'm teasing you; you are fun to play with.
You're asking for logic from JWs, and you won't get it. While any normal person understands that disfellowshipping is a casting of a person out of an organization, the Society views all ex-JWs as still vaguely connected with the organization. An elder told me the other day that the Society even considers DF'd people still to be JWs. If you're DF'd for sexual sins, you're not considered an apostate. But since you're always considered somewhat connected, if you sink down to apostasy after you've been DF'd or have otherwise been out for a long time, you can still be viewed by JWs as an apostate. In your case, if you express criticism of the JWs to your JW mother, then she'll automatically consider you an apostate based on this stupid notion, even though she would probably not consider someone who never was a JW an apostate for expressing identical criticisms. On the other hand, some people are not DF'd but are considered apostates. I'm one of them (I haven't been DF'd because I've been inactive for 20 years, and they know very well that they'd have a hell of a lawsuit on their hands if they did). Go figure.
Bingo! Exactly the in depth reply I had hoped for. THIS is the meat of it then. Ah yes, I am a force to be wreckoned with then? Mission aKKomplished!!
Say, think I'd be a good dub today with such intense inquiries?
You'll have to ask them about that (it's easy to do; just call Brooklyn Bethel at 718-560-5000 and authoritatively ask to speak with them; who is Ralph, BTW?).
Um, Alan, I have exceeded my Bethel calls for the month sir. hahahaha busy,, busy,, busy bee i am
RALPH?? Him? ROFLOLOLOL oh, he is NOTHING!...to me! Oh, who? He is just another Dick in my life.
Say, thanks again Alan for the comprehensive reply. It's appreciated.
You sure are fun to 'play' with!
Love ya, sKally
Maverick

Wonderful logic Alan and SF. So basically what is being said is that the 'apostacy' being spoken of is the failing away or standing back from the Governingbodygod and has nothing to do with the True God at all. Do I have that right? We are all apostates of the demigods in Brooklyn? We are apostates of the big apostates. Doesn't that cancel out? How about we are not apostates and those pointy tinfoil hat, and diaper wearing androgyny in Olympus, (Brooklyn) are? Maverick
AlanF

Hi Skally,
: I'm teasing you; you are fun to play with.
A lot of womens tell me that.
:: You're asking for logic from JWs, and you won't get it...
: Bingo! Exactly the in depth reply I had hoped for. THIS is the meat of it then. Ah yes, I am a force to be wreckoned with then? Mission aKKomplished!!
Good! And now what do you offer me in return for this wondrous and enabling bit of knowledge?
I see you've been learning foolish spelling techniques from the Talleyman.
: Say, think I'd be a good dub today with such intense inquiries?
No.
: Um, Alan, I have exceeded my Bethel calls for the month sir. hahahaha busy,, busy,, busy bee i am
I see that I have much to learn from you. Give me a call sometime.
: RALPH?? Him? ROFLOLOLOL oh, he is NOTHING!...to me! Oh, who? He is just another Dick in my life.
I see. I suspect I should not go there.
: You sure are fun to 'play' with!
All the ladies tell me that. So are you.
AlanF
AlanF

Hi Maverick,
: So basically what is being said is that the 'apostacy' being spoken of is the failing away or standing back from the Governingbodygod and has nothing to do with the True God at all. Do I have that right?
Yes.
: We are all apostates of the demigods in Brooklyn? We are apostates of the big apostates.
Yup.
: Doesn't that cancel out?
Depends on who you ask.
: How about we are not apostates and those pointy tinfoil hat, and diaper wearing androgyny in Olympus, (Brooklyn) are?
I won't disagree.
AlanF
cynicus

Good Lord! Yet another dumb German author snookered by the JWs (certain authors writing on the JWs and the Holocaust come to mind). It's telling, though, that Hartman does not seem to have been suckered all the way into becoming a JW. At least, nothing is said that he has. I wonder why?

I wondered about that too: did he convert or not? Since his book is positioned as being written as kind of 'objective' and from the viewpoint from a 'reporter' it is to me essential information. But there are no straight answers on the site, and I had to fallback to deduction: from what is written in the guestbook he is addressed by various guests as a 'brother', and at least one person (Inge) knows him personally and describes him as 'brother in the faith'. So it seems reasonable that he is a dub now.
(c)
anti-absolutist

It is funny what cynicus says about how this Hartman guy seems to have become a dub.
His writing of ANYTHING should have been shunned by the GB, yet because it is unobjectively pro JW he is welcomed in with open arms.
I have read a lot of Alan F's writings here, as well as Francois' and others and it has been far more objective/enlightening than this Hartman guy and yet the reaction from the WBTS, to AF and Francois is to push them further into the APOSTATE category.
It doesn't really surprise me, I guess, but it is still shameful.
This is one of the sad things about a democratic culture (not that I can think of any other sad things about democracy, though). These shallow minded people (WBTS) are treated as though they are an acceptable vehicle to GOD.
Brad

A new book on the JW's by Hartman

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