and for those that believe disfellowshipping is unacceptable, would you want to have known child molesters as members of a congregation that you were in?
Do You Think Disfellowshipping Is Unscriptural?
by minimus 31 Replies latest jw friends
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sandy
I believe it is unscriptural to make others shun DF'd ones.
Whether or not you choose not to associate with an individual should be a personal decision.
I know people in my life that I feel are not such great people to be around. I limit my association with them. I don't go around telling others not to talk to them or hang out with that person. That is up to each and every individual. Of course parents have the responsibility to monitor their children’s association.
Re: Child Molesters - I say kick them out of the congregation altogether for the safety of the children. If they repented and found God then that is fine with me but they can worship him on their own-alone.
"And that's all I have to say about that"
Sandy
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elumn8_2
My thought is:
1Corinthians 5:13
" while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves." implying that men have the ablility to judge ones inside the congregation. He said also in 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 " Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.". This would shun a person to repent.contrast that to:
. Jesus said in Mathew 7:1 "Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.". Even when Peter thought it was good enough to forgive someone just 7 times Jesus corrected him and said at Mathew 18:22 "Jesus said to him: "I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times.".
Mathew 23:23
"but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness.".Mathew 9:13
"I want mercy, and not sacrifice.".Judging now would uproot the wheat along with the weeds. (1 Corinthians Ch 6) There will be judging of the world and of angels in Gods kingdom to come. (Mathew 25:32) Jesus will do the separating of sheep and goats it is not up to an elder. (Mathew 19:28-30)
(Galatians 5:4) YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away fro his undeserved kindness
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minimus
I like what Jesus Christ said over what Paul said.
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Gopher
Where is the scripture verse that says three elders should get together and decide, not whether to HELP an erring person, but whether such a person is worthy of membership? What scripture says that an announcement should be made in front of the congregation to begin shunning an individual? What scripture says that Christians cannot speak with their formerly-belonging family members about spiritual things? What verse says you cannot hand out privileged materials (Kingdom Ministries, Ministry School tests) to these erring ones? What scripture says they need to sit in the back of the meeting hall? What scripture says that the elders can announce that such a one is no longer to be shunned?
As for child molestors, rather than handling them through a disfellowshipping arrangement, they ought to be reported to proper authorities immediately. Congregation members can use their own conscience and common sense in deciding whether or not to extend fellowship to such perverts. (I think their choice should be rather obvious......right?)
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metatron
There was a convicted child molester on Oprah who spoke frankly about his life outside of prison.
He lived in a nice neighborhood and told his new neighbors about his past and requested that they be discreet in not
allowing their kids near his house . They seemed to repect this, without hard feelings.
Contrast this with the typical corrupt and SECRETIVE Watchtower -world. Witnesses aren't better people, they're just better
at pretending to be better!
As for df'ing, the GB is lying - and has been lying for years. Who you associate with should be a matter of personal choice.
The Bible clearly commands "and do not be treating him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother" in the case of disobedient
people. The Society knew this in the 1980's and started changing df'ing BUT REVERSED COURSE because of their selfish
greed for control. Where did the Apostle Paul threaten to "disband" the Corinth congregation because they failed to shun one
person? He didn't! MOST ( not all) went along with the shunning, as he plainly states.
metatron
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BluesBrother
1Corinthians 5:13 " while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves
Unscriptural ? Not in principle, according to Paul and 2 John 10.
However, did the Bible writers intend that it be applied to the "Sins" of disagreeing with the WTS? or smoking tobacco? or celebrating Christmas? or having a blood transfusion?
Did they intend that your own mother or daughter be shunned if they cross the line?
It is the strict , and sometimes inhuman,application of the Bible precedent that is so wrong
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minimus
Blues Bro, I totally agree with you. Balancing Jesus' words with Paul's, it is inconcievable to believe that any such "disfellowshipping" would mean what it does in JW jargon. But can this Scripturally be proved? When a JW cites Paul's words, it sounds like a first century shunning.
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undercover
Disfellowshipping and forced shunning are two different issues. Disfellowshipping someone for unrepentant sins/wrongdoing is acceptable. All organizations have some way of ridding itself of people who don't meet their standards.
If someone refuses to play by the rules set out by the WTS(whether Bible based or not) then they can be removed from that organization. There can be sanctions against them(i.e. no talks, can't go out in service, no "privledges"). Since all meetings at KH are open to the public, then unless they are creating a nuisance, you can't ask them to leave though. Now, when regular organizations remove a member because of some wrongdoing, the other members may still have contact with said removed member. Some may choose not to associate with him/her due to their troubles, others may not care. It's a personal decision based on the knowledge and experiences people have had with that person. The WTS on the other hand coerces its members to shun all removed members.
To me, that's where the problem arises. Somebody is telling me that I can't talk to, or even greet someone because they are no longer a member of the "organization". It's the same if somebody you worked with got fired for innapporpriate conduct at work. You don't know what it is they did. You can't work with the person anymore, but can the company tell you that you can't eat lunch with that person or go to a movie with that person? If you knew them well enough to know that they are dishonest or violent, you might limit your conduct with them on your own. Out of respect for the company you might not invite them to visit you at work, but you would not go so far as to completely ignore them in the supermarket checkout when you see them, would you?
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minimus
Undercover, EXCELLENT reasoning points! Now I want scriptural rebuttal, please.