Enlightened discourse and debate frequently involves attacking what we believe to be flaws in the ARGUMENT, but it need not, and indeed should not, involve personal attacks on the PERSON.
Well said jp1692
Marc & Cora on YouTube causing unnecessary divisions
by jambon1 60 Replies latest jw friends
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ambersun
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notsurewheretogo
I wouldn't mind seeing the examples of where Cedars shoots people down who don't agree with him.
Look up his posts on Reddit...awash with his replies to points that are fair but he can't take it.
I've had many a post war with him. I made a comment that one of his more professional videos, one he released to various media outlets about child abuse, which was a good video, where I commented that for advertising, presentation and "first look" points it may have been better if he had at least tidied up his physical appearance.
In the video his hair is a mess and he is unshaven.
Nothing wrong with that, people can look how they want but I simply made the point that if you want to get taken seriously and want to present a professional outlook then appearance is important...advertising 101 if you will.
You would have thought it was the most personal insult the guy has ever had...the replies back and forth we had were incredible...I was simply offering a point to help his videos get better coverage yet he could NOT take any point from anyone on whatever he does.
His ego is huge...
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nmthinker
His ego is huge...
To be fair that is problem with most J-dubs, especially men. I am Cedars age and was born into the religion. I have this problem too. You are raised to feel like you're better than everyone else and you have an innate sense of being right when everyone else is wrong. The effects of this can last a lifetime.
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notsurewheretogo
To be fair that is problem with most J-dubs, especially men. I am Cedars age and was born into the religion. I have this problem too. You are raised to feel like you're better than everyone else and you have an innate sense of being right when everyone else is wrong. The effects of this can last a lifetime.
So do you think it is wise to then be an activist? To be in the public eye so to speak? To therefore be reasonable? Mild? Open to discussion? Willing to admit you are wrong? Willing to take advice?
If you are going to be an activist like Cedars is then I'm sorry but you need to show certain characteristics that come with a more public facing persona.
And he doesn't...he now has divided exjws because some like him some do not. The opposite of what should be happening...the exjw community should be getting stronger as more come out but it is getting fragmented with camps...its almost like they are bitter, mentally-diseases apostate! Well...that is how they will be viewed by dubs who are on the fence and come across their videos of activists attacking each other.
I have nothing against the man personally, I do not know him but some of the things he does I do not like but it is his attitude, especially when it comes to constructive criticism, on forums, that shows he is lacking in these areas.
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krismalone
John Cedars has an excellent website and has a rational, calm, civilized demeaner when presenting his information. I have benefitted greatly from his website.
I'm disappointed that others would attack his character and his work.
A JW lurker will see these vicious attacks that ex-jws launch against each other as confirmation of what the GB says about former members....namely that we're all full of rabid hate and beligerant. This can scare them to go back to the WT cult and never again question the GB masters.
Rational, calm discussion of the facts without showing extreme beligerant emotions is most effective to opening the minds of those seeking the truth of a matter.
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nelim
I do not like but it is his attitude, especially when it comes to constructive criticism
So you make a comment about his beard, he doesn't agree and then you complain he doesn't take "constructive criticism"? Such a poor generalization. He probably also has a mirror you know... and a wife... So probably he knows what he looks like.
I actually went back to see his comments here, the end is a fight but farther back it looks positive to me and he gets positive replies. But maybe there already was a negative sentiment it's hard to see.
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jambon1
Notsurewheretogo
I was unaware of such dialogue. It's disappointing that he does indeed seem to take input or criticism badly.
However, I have benefited from his comments on different topics and his balanced and fair use of mocking such harmful and ridiculous beliefs really appeals to me.
As much as I believe everyone's activism will help I personally find Marc and Cora equally arrogant if not moreso and their sickly love in with each other detracts from their message.
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steve2
To be fair that is problem with most J-dubs, especially men. I am Cedars age and was born into the religion. I have this problem too. You are raised to feel like you're better than everyone else and you have an innate sense of being right when everyone else is wrong. The effects of this can last a lifetime.
Try not to attribute to JW organization, perfectly normal human traits. Humans in general do not respond well to unsolicited feedback on their appearance.
So Cedars is sensitive to criticism and is known to give as good as he gets. Perhaps the difference between him and others is he speaks out about it - in contrast to some who might tend to silently nurse their hurt feelings or be super diplomatic. His response sounds pretty normal to me.
Most people in the public eye have rough edges - we see them on "display" as it were.
Fact is, he is no longer a JW under the thumb of an organization obsessed about "image" so I can understand his low tolerance to feedback on his appearance.
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jambon1
On the topic where all the mud slinging was spotted (Russian ban) Lloyd doesn't half nail the issues in one of his latest short videos posted below.
In my opinion it shows approaches like Marc and Cora to be ill thought out and full of biterness and anger.
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StephenMyers
I have watched all of Cedars videos about the ban and all of Marc and Cora's.
I think Cedars was better produced and his message had a better structure.
They both interviewed Steven Hassan and he supported Cedars view of the ban will not achieve freedom for Russian JWs. Although Marc and Cora seem to think he supported them, which he clearly did not.
As for the mud slinging and drama. They all give as good as they get. I think it's immature but interesting to watch, as they are all free and can go on YouTube and behave as they wish. It makes them all look silly. But it's fun.
Finally Cedars did apologise for his flow chart.