Are JWs capable of a genuine discussion? (page 2)

Giordano

It is easier to understand if you apply the rule of Cognitive Dissonance.

That trying to hold two contradictory beliefs at the same time is mentally painful.

As in OY VEY it makes my head hurt.

Either the WTBTS is totally right, because no half way measures can be applied, or It's not. This is a very painful process to go through.

Their can be no contradiction between that person's beliefs and actions. Only those who do not totally believe can successfully game the organization they serve.

"In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency in order to mentally function in 'their' so called real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable, and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance.

This is done by making changes to justify their stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance, or by 'Actively' avoiding social situations and/or contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance."

This is a factor in every high control belief situation be it the JW or Mormon world, Scientology, the Military, a sports team......a police force, political party, a corporation.

In all of these singular worlds there is a strong need to think a certain way. A need to hold firm. In our human past being a part of a tribe, protecting it, being willing to fight for it............meant surviving.

When a person begins to see things in a different light they become suspect, if they speak out about what they don't like or think is wrong......... the suspicion is confirmed and a separation process is put into effect.

As in shunning.

paradiseseeker

Absolutely not.

In fact, I'm thinking of a friend of mine who is PIMI and extremely intelligent and logical. We can spend hours discussing about a lot of topics and commenting films or TV series like Game of Thrones. I admit that sometimes I get angry for her always having something to contradict me and jealous for her ability to see many different perspectives at a time and see things and motives that are not obvious.

However, the very few times that I expressed a disagreement with JW teachings she always tried to defend the WT adopting the most astonishing positions. For instance:

She keeps in touch with her former non-JWs schoolmates, which it's something that I absolutely approve. Thus I told her that I couldn't agree with the fact that we are expected to separate from non-JWs, specially if we are named Ministerial Servants or Elders. She replied that she sees it perfectly logical since if we are going to counsel someone about the dangers of bad asociations, we shouldn't have the same kind of friends. No comments.

In other occasion, I told her that it was very hypocritical to invite others to attend our meeting and read our literature, but we are not allowed to attend other churchs or read any kind of religious literature apart from ours. She replied that it was because many people going down that road ended up being apostates. All those moments when we talked about hidden motives, hypocrisy and people being manipulated... gone.

When I expressed my disagreement with child baptism, she said that we cannot judge everyone and presuppose that all of them are immature, that she herself had her mind made up on a lot of things when she was 10. Also she told me that I suffered from "the born-in illness", like some kind of immature child who is always complaining about having limits but doesn't have any idea of the dangers of the outside world.

When one of her non-JWs friends told her about a disfellowshipped youtuber, she said that we have to be very careful with those testimonies because "we all like playing the victim".

Finally, once she told me that I had to solve those doubts because "Satan loves taking advantage of them".

I cannot express with words my amazement with such a huge amount of double-thinking.

dubstepped

The arrogance and defensiveness is because of ego. These aren't merely beliefs that JWs hold, these beliefs are who JWs ARE. It is their entire identity. It dominates every thought, feeling, and action. So any amount of questioning threatens their very being, their existence. It's too personal for them. They cannot have a genuine discussion because they're too involved in it yet probably don't fully even understand what they believe and deep down they know it. A genuine discussion brings the pain of cognitive dissonance which is too great to bear.

sparrowdown

No, they are not capable of genuine discussion in their fully indoctrinated state the JW program running in their brain won't allow it. Garbage in garbage out.

That's why I feel they need some sort of "short sharp shock" in the form of saying something they will find completely unexpected to disrupt the JW feedback loop in their brain for a few seconds or minutes. Enough to allow a tiny window of time for a critical thought to get in that may resurface later after the conversation has ended. That's how most people wake up in tiny snippets rather than all at once, it's a process.

Ding

JWs are like salesmen.

Once they see that they aren't going to make a sale, the conversation is over.

sir82

So why the arrogance? Why the defensiveness?

They used to be trained (back in the 50s & 60's, maybe thru the 70s) to debate. And they did it well, even if their conclusions were flawed.

In the past several decades, though, the internal cohesion of their doctrine has splintered, and via the internet, simple and effective refutations of their remaining core doctrines are easily found.

So, for the past several decades, JWs have been trained to run away from anything resembling intelligent discussion. People who present coherent, rational refutations of JW doctrine are demonized as "not humble" (at best) or "apostate" (the most vile and despicable term imaginable for a JW).

Betheliesalot

I recall a well spread lie told at conventions and assemblies maybe 30 years ago, about someone arguing with a member of clergy or say a minister, and after a few studies, lo and behold they became brothers, and the audience chuckled and laughed with smugness. I hated that. Guess that,s where the term boasting session came from.

slimboyfat

Yearbooks are replete with such stories of clergymen becoming JWs. But you won't find any experiences like that related in the 2018 yearbook. For two main reasons:

1. No new experiences.

2. No more yearbook.

scratchme1010

So why the arrogance? Why the defensiveness?
Thoughts?

Ask hothabanero. He can say.

Joke aside, personally I cannot generalize. First, one thing is being brainwashed and attach the wrong feelings to the right information, and a very different one is being capable of sustaining an argument.

In the culture we live today, where conceding or being open to listening is seen as a sign of weakness, I don't think that isolating JWs in that matter is fair to them. Furthermore, (IMO) approaching them or anyone for that matter in "debate mode", is not conducive to anything useful. if you look at how many of us opened our eyes and/or learned TTATT, most did not wake up after a debate or argument.

I'd check the premise on which you are basing your statement.

Giordano

There is a cause and effect working in the JW world.

All active mass movements strive, therefore, to interpose a fact-proof screen between the faithful and the realities of the world. ...by claiming that the ultimate and absolute truth is already embodied in their doctrine and that there is no truth nor certitude outside it. ...To rely on the evidence of senses and of reason is heresy and treason. It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbelief's.

Eric Hoffer in The True Believer

Are JWs capable of a genuine discussion?

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