JW scientist banned from Institute's WebSite because of Creationistic Views

by GermanXJW 229 Replies latest jw friends

  • Realist
    Realist

    germanJW,

    oh man you scared me for a second! the max planck institutes represent the creme de la creme of research in germany...similar to the NIH in the US. so if the director of such an institute would be a JW it would be SCARY!

    thank God ...and as expected...Loennig is NOT the department chief! he is merely works there (which however, is a minor miracle by itself ! his boss didn't want to fire him just because of his believes but now doesn't want the Max planck Logo misused for nonscientific nonsense. after all a website with this logo should stand for scientific accuracy and not religious believes!

    anyway, thanks for the info!!!

    Realist

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi GermanJW,

    I can't read German so I can't comment on the contents of the links you gave. However, from what you said, it sounds like Loenning was using the Max Planck Institute website to promote his views about "Intelligent Design creationism". Likely, the Institute figured that that was a misuse of their website since it promoted a view that the Institute does not want to be associated with. It's not likely that Loenning merely participated in a discussion board on the website and was banned for stating his views, since most DB's exist specifically for that purpose. Most likely he was using the Institute's reputation to promote his views, or was speaking as if he were an Institute spokesman. If he is the head of the Genetics Department, that lends credence to this view. Do correct me if I'm wrong. If so, then banning him from continuing such misuse should be expected. However, it might be that Max Planck has a general policy that its staff must not promote wild, unscientific notions, which is how almost all scientists would classify ID, and again, in his role as a department head, he should not promote views that most scientists classify as "unscientific".

    Similarly, if the head of Harvard University's biology department began promoting ID ideas, the department would rightly question his qualifications to do biology at all. This would be true whether the guy used Harvard resources or did it entirely on his own. Just suppose this head began promoting flat-earthism, phrenology, holocaust revisionism, or anything else that most people understand is whacky. Why would any university administrator want to allow the guy to use institute resources to promote such whackiness? They would justifiably question his qualifications to continue as a biologist, much less a department head, since you have to have a modicum of ability to distinguish between reality and whackiness to do the work.

    Is "Intelligent Design theory" whacky? Not entirely. I just think it's probably wrong. It certainly isn't science in the normal way one defines science, since it begins with the notion that "God did it". That's religion not science and it has no place in a science curriculum, nor does any science related institution have any obligation to allow such a view to be promoted in its name.

    The most prominent ID spokesman, Phillip Johnson, kicked off the modern ID movement around 1990 when he published Darwin on Trial. He's published many other books in the same vein since then. His private view is that young-earth creationism is the correct view of the origin of everything, but he's politically savvy enough not to promote such blatantly whacked-out views. When one reads Johnson's books, one gets the feeling that Johnson is not telling the whole story, and one is right. Johnson is a lawyer and argues as lawyers do in court -- not necessarily trying to get at the truth, but trying to get at just enough truth to put a viewpoint across. Johnson simply fails to tell readers the whole truth about evolution and "Intelligent Design" theory, and so, just as Watchtower writers so often do, mislead by telling partial truths.

    A solid debunking of ID ideas can be found in some articles in the book Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics (ed. Robert Pennock, The MIT Press, 2001).

    Rocketman's response was typical of creationists and their supporters: "I'm not in favor of people being "banned" for sharing a viewpoint." It's not likely that Loenning was banned merely for "sharing a viewpoint", but for doing so in the wrong venue, or disqualifying himself as a competent researcher anb department head. This would be no different from dismissing John Morris, present head of the Institute for Creation Research, for publicly or privately expressing views in favor of evolution. And we know very well that if creationists such as the JWs were in political power, they would ban even private expressions in favor of evolution by anyone in any position, so they shouldn't complain when others do to them what they would do to others.

    Ed, science is not just a form of belief. Science is a human endeavor that, on the whole and in the long run, tends toward finding how the world really works. You can call it a long term search for truth about our world, if you like. Science does not work by searching for truth in a holy book and then bending facts about the world to fit. It starts with observations concerning present or historical events, and posits theories that attempt to explain the observations. After a long time, and much observation and wrangling, a theory tends to gain acceptance, and finally to be accepted as a tentative "fact". Such things are facts, not in the sense of "absolute truth", but in the sense that it's extremely unlikely that another explanation will be found that is better. In that sense, the overall set of theories known as "evolution" are much better at explaining observations than are any of the many forms of creationism, including "Intelligent Design".

    You complain about an "elite group" of people deciding how data should be interpreted. Well the fact is that scientists are trained in the art of interpreting data. Non-scientists do not generally have the skills to interpret data properly. A forensic scientist can tell a great deal from a few bones, whereas to me they're just a pile of bones. A good paleontologist can also tell a lot from bones, whereas you and other creationists cannot.

    A good scientist can also simplify the data down to bare enough essentials to allow most non-specialists to understand the reasons behind the theory. As Einstein said, "If you can't explain it to your grandmother you don't understand it." When I read good explanations of their ideas by good scientists, I can follow it and can see just why the data supports their ideas. On the other hand, when I read most creationist material, I'm almost always left with the feeling that I've been snookered, like when I read Phillip Johnson's writings. And when scientists and creationists argue back and forth, in books, articles, online or in person, I almost always find that the creationists have deliberately ignored inconvenient data, or they run away from observations that they have done so. In other words, creationists tend to obscure facts rather than shed light on them.

    AlanF

  • GermanXJW
    GermanXJW

    Realist, go to http://www.mpiz-koeln.mpg.de/~loennig/ and see that Loennig holds the position of a Team Leader. I never claimed he was Director, but it is not that he simply works there.

    AlanF, you are right. The main problem is that Loennig used the institute's facilities to promote his view. They are now discussing how to handle private opinions on their servers. They don't want this to be a Lex Loennig and now all private opinions are under examination.

  • Ed
    Ed
    A good paleontologist can also tell a lot from bones, whereas you and other creationists cannot.

    But are they thinking "What really happened here?" or is it more like "Which of the acceptable possibilities that won't get me laughed at does this most closely match?"

    Oh sod it, let's just draw a monkey next to it with causal arrows.

  • one
    one

    Web banned? Prelude to being fired?

    Paradox can be explained… Scientist are not immune to mental disorders, I have seen a few true professionals (science field) loose their minds or hold silly religious related ideas and concepts. In fact their mental capacity may be used to "rationalize" anything..

  • Valis
    Valis
    You may laugh about the paradoxon but Dr. Loennig is a JW and he is head of the Genetic Department of the Max-Planck-Institut.

    germanjw...um maybe you forgot you said this... Sincerely, District Overbeer

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Ed said,

    : But are they thinking "What really happened here?" or is it more like "Which of the acceptable possibilities that won't get me laughed at does this most closely match?"

    Both, actually. The kind that get one laughed at are those that are not possible. There are hundreds of examples of laughable explanations for things within the creationist community. The problem is that they are usually ad hoc affairs that are inconsistent with, or even contradict, other such ad hoc explanations. They never really put it all together into a coherent whole. There exists no "theory of creation" beyond "God did it". And when a thoroughly dishonest and debunked book like the Watchtower's 1985 Creation book is held up as a reference work by a man supposed to be objective, and who is in a responsible position in a biological research lab, that casts serious doubts on his qualifications. It would be like referring to astrology as a credible science to do biology.

    AlanF

  • Realist
    Realist

    Hallo germanJW,

    you said:

    Dr. Loennig is a JW and he is head of the Genetic Department of the Max-Planck-Institut.
    each MP institute has dozens of research groups (most groups are rather small)...and he is a leader of such a group. which is amazing enough though! it would be quite interesting to debate scientific issues with him. schoene gruesse aus Wien, Realist
  • Ed
    Ed
    The kind that get one laughed at are those that are not possible.

    Right, but here's the thing I don't get: who gets the final say about what is "possible" and what is "not possible"? Does lack of evidence for something make it "not possible"? I would have thought that this also an unscientific sort of attitude.

    By the way, thanks for setting me straight, everyone. I honestly thought scientific types were not open to all possibilities and would ridicule any ideas they didn't want to consider. But you have helped me to see that this whole idea is ridiculous, laughable and unworthy of further consideration.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi Ed,

    : Right, but here's the thing I don't get: who gets the final say about what is "possible" and what is "not possible"?

    No one particular person or group. In the world of science, it's a consensus reached after a long time. When an explanation repeatedly passes difficult tests thrown at it from all angles by all manner of scientists over a long period of time, it becomes accepted. That doesn't mean it's absolutely true, but that it passed the test of time. Explanations (such as young-earth creationism) that can't even pass first muster are quickly forgotten.

    : Does lack of evidence for something make it "not possible"?

    That depends on the specific situation. Suppose I told you that I had been badly burned in a fire five years ago. You look me over and see no burn scars. You question whether I was burned or not. Why? Because burns leave unmistakeable evidence. So in this case, lack of evidence for burns is evidence, even proof, that it is not possible that I was burned.

    Another example is the claim that there was a global Flood of Noah. There is not a single piece of evidence in favor of that claim. A huge flood would leave massive amounts of evidence of the sort that is observable on a relatively small scale in a few parts of the world. A particularly good example of such massive, but still local flooding, is the so-called Missoula floods some 12-14,000 years ago in Idaho, Washington and Oregon. Do a web search for "missoula flood" and you'll find plenty of material. The land features seen in Washington are what ought to be seen all over the world, if there was a "Noah's Flood". Such features are mostly nonexistent. Like with my burn example, lack of evidence is proof of lack of event.

    : I would have thought that this also an unscientific sort of attitude.

    Again it depends on the situation. You need to educate yourself in the methods of science in order to understand this.

    : By the way, thanks for setting me straight, everyone. I honestly thought scientific types were not open to all possibilities and would ridicule any ideas they didn't want to consider. But you have helped me to see that this whole idea is ridiculous, laughable and unworthy of further consideration.

    Sarcasm like this merely proves that you are ignorant and willfully so.

    AlanF

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit