The question no JW can answer without resorting to babbling (page 3)

Mozzie

Edit my last post, Green Jays interlinear

Doug Mason

Tenacious,

Regarding Thomas worshipping Jesus (John 20:24-29). (Chapter 21 was added later.)

I do not know if you have studied the Christology of the Gospel of Thomas, but the people who wrote the Fourth Gospel ("John") had also developed their own Christology but had arrived at different conclusions. In this passage, the writers of John were reflecting upon the Thomasine community. Read the story again, this time realising that this is not a literal historical account but a story designed to denigrate the Christology of the Thomasines. This methodology is also employed at several other accounts in John, such as the mythical Nicodemus and the Blind Man who could now see.

Regarding 1 Timothy. It was written at the beginning of the second century (Paul died in 64 CE). At that time, a Gnostic named Marcion relied on Paul's writings, even producing the first collection of Paul's letters. Marcion made so much use of Paul's writings that the proto-orthodox gave Paul a wide berth.

The person who wrote 1 Timothy was complaining about the way that people (no doubt the Marcionites) were using Paul. In that context (early decades of the second century) attempts made against Marcion included the writing of Acts of the Apostles. (2 Peter is likely the last canonised writing, coming later in the second century, almost 100 years after Peter's death.)

Doug

Tenacious

Thanks for the info Doug.

I'll definitely look into it further.

OneGenTwoGroups

My ability to defeat Trinitarian arguments in high school is the reason I became a zealot JW. smh

Doug Mason

Hi Tenacious,

I need to make a correction here, as it was the writer of Peter who said people were misusing Paul. I Timothy was written when the Jesus-followers were moving from their first blush of emotional enthusiasm to the consideration of church structure and hierarchy. As I said, we are looking at the first part of the second century.

Of the 13 writings attributed to Paul, the general consensus held by the majority of scholars is that 7 were genuinely written by Paul. In chronological order: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Philippians and Romans. Further, some of these epistles are collections of letters; some scholars identify 4 letters in 2 Corinthians, others see 6 letters.

The others attributed to Paul, such as Colossians, Ephesians, and so on were written well after his death.

His genuine writings are our earliest written record. Mark's Gospel was the earliest record about Jesus' life and preaching, and it was written anonymously about 70 CE, some 40 years after Jesus' death. Matthew's Gospel (also anonymous) followed some 15 years later.

All the best with you research. You will find it exciting and challenging.

Doug

Doug Mason

OneGenTwoGroups,

It would be interesting to survey Bible scholars (and I do not mean fundamentalists) to see how many hold to the Trinitarian formula.

It is one thing to expose the Trinity doctrine but quite another to explain and defend the Watchtower's ideas. For me, the Watchtower's explanation is fraught with as many difficulties as what the Trinity faces.

Have you tabulated the contradictory statements in the John Gospel? or in Paul?

Doug

garyneal

I think crabby left but I agree with the overall consensus and that trying to argue the Trinity with a JW is a pointless endeavor. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. However, I do find it interesting that JW's can claim to be monotheistic and then say that there are multiple gods. As best as I can understand it, that does not compute and the Trinity teaching was formulated primarily to proclaim Jesus to be God while simultaneously adhering to monotheism. There is only one God but this God is manifested in three seperate, co-equal, and co-eternal persons.

I'm not saying this is correct, I'm just saying that this was formulated because Judaism was strictly monotheist so Christianity also had to be monotheist. The whole notion of 'true' god 'false' god does not compute. In monotheism, there is only one God, everyone else isn't a god at all, end of story. By proclaiming Jesus to be a god as the NWT John 1:1 puts it, you introduce polytheism.

Heartsafire

Crabby I think your argument is on point. I've always wondered why more JW's weren't concerned with the fact that the JW version of John 1:1 is so polytheistic. This is why I believe your reasoning would only work on someone who is doubting the troof because hardcore JWs checks their brain at the door and will only focus on defending the intellectually dishonest WT theology.

sir82

Actually, if you want to hear a JW babble, take them to a playground full of running, laughing kids, and ask them, "if Armageddon came tomorrow, would Jehovah slaughter all these kids?"

The question no JW can answer without resorting to babbling

Share this