How do you become one of the 144,000? Or are they already chosen and we're all shit out of luck? The odds of me becoming one of the 144,000 is almost astronomical... I would have a better chance of winning the lottery I think!?!?!! So what's the reward of being a JW? To me there's seems to be none?
List of Critical WTS Teachings
by Vanderhoven7 27 Replies latest watchtower bible
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waton
How do you become one of the 144,000?
M: jws, wt is wrong on this. it is not eating, drinking at the memorial it. -- is to be a
a) male virgin Rev 14 and to
b) die by beheading, a martyr's death. Rev.20 still in vogue bsw.
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Mufasa
Vidiot,
Why are you calling names (lurkers, trolls)??!?! Why would how many followers someone has have anything to do with this space? I thought this was a place to discuss JW's beliefs, teachings, and practices.
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Mufasa
Waton
Why so hostile, I thought it was an honest question.... I might be a little "frank" with my wording but I just don't want my question to be misunderstood. When you seem to be so friendly it sure doesn't make me want to become a JW at all. But I bet you couldn't care less if I do or not because you're a better human than I am already , so you don't give 2 shits what I do right??? I'm probably wasting my time at this point cuz you aren't reading anymore LMFAO!!! SUCH A LOVING "CULT" I MEAN RELIGION... In short I don't understand your answer at all!
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waton
In short I don't understand your answer at all!
Mufasa, i am sorry, you misunderstood my tone, probable across 4 languages, and unable to see our face.
I tried to keep the answer very short.so please read the 2 chapters cited.
it is the angels that are doing the sealing, and they are not telling us the results. but you have to fulfill a & b to be even on the short list.
The last that seem to be fit are the young men Bibelforschers in good standing, that went under the the falling axe, aka guillotine for resisting the Nazis in the 1940s in Europe.
virgins that were axed for their faith. rev 14, rev 20.
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waton
The last that seem to be fit are the young men
mustafa, looking at the text in Rev 14: 4, it says that they are pure, undefiled with woman, and' we assume it means the 144 000 must have been men, but not so, because
unorthodox relations are possible for ladies too.
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Lithspherex
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Why would anyone want to continue to pretend that God would consider a male / man - to be a virgin ?
There is not a single example, concept nor idea concerning a physical male virgin
- in all of the 7000 + years of Biblical history.. _ not even one.
In the Bible - a male is never expected to be disciplined or DISCIPLE to ever regard virginity nor concerned or restricted concerning how many wives he marries -
The 144,000 are claimed by many Trinitarians and Jehovah Witness believers to be STRICTLY MALE SEX
BUT yet
There is no such idea or concept of a Male Virgin.
In the entire Bible, You will never find the idea of a Male Virgin. NEVER
There is no Glory and Special Holiness and Godly Ordination - in a MALE being a Virgin.
in the Bible - there is no Such an IDEA or CONCEPT of a Male Virgin. Nor the Requirement or Concern - that a Male be a literal Virgin.
A male is never required to EVER, EVER even Consider His Virginity or Worry or Concern Himself with being a Virgin before He is Married. He Can Mary 10,000 Times to Many, Many Virgins and Widows and Never will be required to be a Virgin. This is Basic Bible Stuff. ----------- The Idea does not exist in the Bible. *
( yes - There is the concept of a Spiritual Virgin of the Polygamous Bride OF God who - if they leave this polygamy marriage, and mary another, it is committing spiritual fornication and adultery and divorce.,
BUT there is no Distinction between the Male and Female and There is no sexuality in the Bride of Christ.
The Only requirements for a Male - Is that He Not Forsake His Wives, And Not Have seX with another Currently Married Woman. Or a prostitute. That's it
- That's it, Nothing more. There is no Glory, Special Status or Honor or Requirement - in a Man being A VIRGIN. There are no Male Virgins in the bible AND HE is never honoring or Showing anything to anyone - By being physically a virgin.
unless He is a homosexual.
it has no Value in the bible, no meaning or reality = why would God want his servants to invent criteria for something that is never found on a single page of the entire Bible
Why would God judge the entire world based upon ideas that do not exist in the Bible and then separate 144,000 special males - separating them from the rest of the millions of other believers - and give unto them special status and a elevated position - all based upon conditions and commandments, ordinances, and actions and leanings that do not exist anywhere in the Bible ?
When we read Rev 14:4 from the Greek Manuscripts,
we can clearly see exactly the exact message of the authors.
Here is the exact words for word translation.
Rev 14:4 ουτοι these - εισιν are - οι whom - μετα among - γυναικων women ουκ not - εμολυνθησαν are defiled - παρθενοι virgins - γαρ for - εισιν they are.
ουτοι these - εισιν are - οι who - ακολουθουντες are following - τω the - αρνιω lamb - οπου where ever - αν he - υπαγη goes - ουτοι they - ηγορασθησαν are redeemed απο from - των the - ανθρωπων mankind - απαρχη firstfruits - τω of the - θεω God - και and - τω of the - αρνιω lamb.
Meaning =
Rev 14:4 These are whom among women not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
These who are following the lamb where ever he goes, they are redeemed from the mankind, first fruits of the God and of the lamb.
The main focus of those who believe that these virgins are strictly male sex - is to focus in on the single word that the translators translate as the word “ WITH “ as it is translated
“ These are whom WITH women - not are defiled “
But if we know the fact that in the Bible - there is nowhere in the bible such reality or existence of a literal physical male virgin - in the bible.
This does not exist / It is impossible / not possible for a Godly Male, serving God, to physically be a physical virgin. Unless this man had previous relations with another male of same male sex and had been infiltrated by another male and had been involved in same sex relations.
There is no such an idea in the entire bible of a Virgin Male – the concept does not exist.
Please permit me to demonstrate how easily the ideology and formula completely changes when we change one single word - instead of translating Rev 14:4 as “ These are whom with women “
Or Translating the phrase as - - “ These are whom among women “
not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
We could say “ These are whom with women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
or we could say
………………. “ These are whom among women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
Just as we see the translators use the word “ AMONG “ to demonstrate the meaning of the word.
Luk 22:37 Why seek ye the living “ AMONG “ the dead?
Joh 6:43 Murmur not “ AMONG “ yourselves.
Joh 11:56 Then they ....... spake “ AMONG “ themselves
The word in the bible - WITH / AMONG is the word
μετά - Meta - Met-ah'
A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment;
with - which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between
among, - Of the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.
This Greek word is used a total of 462 total times in the NT. Here are just a few.
There is nothing sexual about any of these verses.
Mat 26:18 AMONG / WITH my disciples.
Mat 25:10 They went in AMONG / WITH him to the marriage:
Mar 14:17 he cometh AMONG / WITH the twelve
Mar 14:33 And he taketh AMONG / WITH him Peter
Mat 26:69 Peter ..... You also was AMONG / WITH Jesus ?
Mat 26:71 This fellow was also AMONG / WITH Jesus
Mat 27:54 and they that were AMONG / WITH him
Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus AMONG / WITH them
Mat 16:27 come in the glory of his Father AMONG / WITH his angels
Mat 17:17 how long shall I be AMONG / WITH you?
None of these verses above are of a sexual connection. This is not a sexual word.
Every single verse in the bible that translates the word
- μετά / Meta - Met-ah'
This correctly would be translate this word - to be understood as “ AMONG “ - it is the true and only definition of the Greek word.
Never is this word used in the NT in a sexual cogitation or with a sexual reflection or connection - never once.
It simply means among, among - amongst - along with - accompanying
- that which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between
among, - Of the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.
This is how the word “ with “ applies to the word - μετά / Meta.
It is not a SEXUAL word reflecting sexual activity or a sexual connection.
The reality is, that in the Greek anguage - the word WITH applies to strictly two people only being together in some proximity or accompanying one another - and when there are more than two people accompanying one another - the word AMONG sounds completely natural in the Greek Language.
And see this clearly in the few examples below.
Mat 28:12 they were assembled AMONG / WITH the elders
Mat 27:53 They came out of the graves WITH his resurrection
Mat 26:40 watch WITH me one hour?
Mat 25:31 all the holy angels WITH him.
Rev 22:21 Christ be AMONG / WITH you all. Amen.
Mat 26:38 watch WITH me.
Mat 26:73 And WITH a while
Mat 26:2 WITH two days
Mat 24:29 WITH the tribulation
Mat 26:11 the poor always AMONG / WITH you
Mat 18:16 take AMONG / WITH thee
Mat 20:2 agreed AMONG / WITH
Mat 20:20 children WITH her sons
Mat 21:2 a colt WITH her
Mat 22:16 their disciples WITH the Herodians
Mat 1:12 they were brought WITH him
Mat 2:3 all Jerusalem WITH him
Mat 1:23 virgin shall be WITH child
Mat 2:11 young child WITH Mary his mother
Mat 4:21 WITH Zebedee their father
Mat 5:25 Agree WITH thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way WITH him;
Mat 5:41 go WITH him twain
Mat 9:11 AMONG / WITH publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:15 the bridegroom is AMONG / WITH them?
Mat 12:4 them which were AMONG / WITH him
Mat 12:30 He that is not WITH me
Mat 12:41 in judgment AMONG / WITH this generation
Mat 12:42 judgment AMONG / WITH this generation
Mat 12:45 taketh WITH himself seven other
Mat 13:20 WITH joy receiveth it;
Mat 14:7 he promised WITH an oath
Mat 15:30 having AMONG / WITH them the lame, blind, dumb and maimed
Mat 17:3 Moses and Elias talking WITH him.
Mat 24:30 WITH power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 WITH a great sound of a trumpet
Mat 24:49 drink AMONG / WITH the drunken;
Mat 24:51 AMONG / WITH the hypocrites .
Mat 25:3 no oil AMONG / WITH them:
Mat 26:20 sat down AMONG / WITH H the twelve.
Mat 26:23 WITH me in the dish
Mat 26:29 drink it new AMONG / WITH you
Mat 26:47 WITH him a great multitude
Mat 26:51 them which were AMONG / WITH Jesus
Mat 26:55 a thief WITH swords
Mat 26:58 sat AMONG / WITH the servants,
Mat 26:72 he denied WITH an oath
Mat 27:34 vinegar to drink mingled WITH gall
Mat 27:41 mocking him, AMONG / WITH the scribes and elders
Mat 27:62 WITH the day of the preparation.
Mat 27:63 WITH three days I will rise again.
Mat 27:66 and setting WITH a watch.
Mat 28:8 from the sepulchre WITH fear
Mat 28:20 I am AMONG / WITH you always
Mar 14:14 eat the passover AMONG / WITH my disciples?
Mar 14:18 One of you which eateth AMONG / WITH me
Mar 14:20 that dippeth AMONG / WITH me
Mar 14:28 But WITH my rising
Rev 19:1 And WITH these things I heard a great voice
Eph 6:7 WITH good will doing service.
There is one single question that I ask about this verse and this question has never been answered by my brothers and sisters who believe that these are virgins who are the strictly male sex.
My question is simply this.
How is it that - a female / woman would defile a male in a sexual relationship - in a honorable Godly marriage
What is so perverted and staining and evil about the female sex –
What makes the FEMALE GENDER so awful, dirty, horrible, obnoxious, foul, horrid and obscene and poison and polluted and ungodly or unholy - that makes it so important to make certain - that a MALE is not defiled by a female - in any sexual relationship.
The translators make it seem that God is pleased because the 144,000 males have served him by never getting married or having any sexual contact with women.
Why is it only the male sex - ONLY MALES / MEN are only - those who are chosen and special to make sure that MALES ONLY are not defiled and perverted and tainted by females.
What is it - spiritually about FEMALES that make them so evil and perverse and horrible - that these males who are not defiled by the female sex – are so special and chosen and holy. ?
To where God has no concept of special group of females who are a chosen group, who have not been defiled by the male sex.
I just honestly see no place in the bible where God is beholding the male sex as honorable or as consecrated or holy or as consecrated or as righteous or as sanctified or as hallowed or divine by obtaining from getting married or having sexual relations with a woman.
Through 5000 + years of biblical history - 5000 + years of commandments, laws and ordinances, with every detail, feature and aspect and element concerning exact details of what God expects and considers holy and sacred -
For 5000 + years of the bible never once, is there any hint or suggestion anywhere whatsoever considering a male sacred or holy or Godly for existing as a virgin or abstaining and refraining from having a wife or keeping himself from women sexually.
Now suddenly, out of nowhere - in Rev 14:4 we see the translation
“ These are whom with women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
or we could say
What if we translate the verse in context to the rest of the bible.
“ These are whom among women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
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Phizzy
In this Thread we have listed so many of the J.W teachings that are patently wrong.
But the one Teaching/Doctrine they have that is critical to their very existence as a credible religion, is that Jesus began to reign in heaven in the year 1914 A.D.
Without that they can have no "choosing" of them as god's Organization in 1919, and that means that, if that " choosing" is not true, then today's Governing Body are self-appointed Charlatans !
No 1914 = No 1919 = The J.W religion is a total Sham.
The 1914 teaching has been proven to be SO wrong that I wonder they are not embarrassed to keep pushing it, admittedly in a subtle, underhanded way, not overtly like they used to, but now presenting it as a given.
They should be ashamed of themselves, fleecing people, imprisoning people mentally, and harming people for life often.