Thoughts on the "Fall of Babylon"

by refiners fire 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire
    Most recently I have been examining such invisibly occurring events as the 1918 “resurrection of the saints” and this week Ive looked into the Watchtower claim that Babylon the Great “Fell” in 1919. There was scant evidence and little biblical support for the WT claim about the resurrection occuring . In fact, the key line of “proof” of the resurrection was that Rutherford was released from jail in 1919. Does the claim of “Babylons fall” in 1919 fare better? What is the proof offered by the WT that this, in fact, occurred?

    BABYLON THE GREAT HAS FALLEN (1963) : “ Historically, this modern Babylon the Great had a fall in the year 1919. The Babylonish world empire of religion still exists, but that fact does not disprove its fall in that year. We must remember that, after ancient Babylon’s surprise fall to the Medes and Persians in 539 B.C., the city kept standing for centuries till finally it disappeared, to fulfill Bible prophecy. Likewise, modern Babylon the Great suffers a significant fall”

    FALLEN AND JUDGED. WT. 1 May 1989: “However, although Babylon’s power over the Jews was broken, it did not mean the end of ancient Babylon… Indeed on the surface the private lives of Babylonian citizens appear to have changed very little under Persian rule. Religious forms were preserved and commercial activity prospered. Thus, in spite of her fall, Babylon continued to function, but with one big difference—God’s people, Israel, were no longer held captive. They returned to Jerusalem to restore true worship there”

    Already we can see the claim that the falling of Babylon was connected to the “release of Israel from captivity”. As well, though it has “Fallen” it continues to exist to such a degree that it APPEARS to continue on with business as usual. Thus any “fall” is only discernable to those with eyes of understanding. Natural men cannot see its occurring. Indeed, the same ones who had eyes to perceive the invisible enthronement of Christ in the heavens in 1914 are the ones who also see the other significant invisible events of the early 20 th century.

    BABYLON THE GREAT HAS FALLEN (1963): “ A.D. 1914 Babylon the Great, or the world empire of Babylonish religion, approached her most critical period in world history. In 1914 the seven times of the Gentiles ended, and the question was, Would Babylon the Great continue to make the nations drink this potion that made the nations drunk with trouble and desperation, or would she use her religious power and influence to prevent the violent, oppressive course of the nations?….., would she bring the nations into peaceful harmony with God’s kingdom, which was due to be born in the heavens in 1914 at the end of the Gentile Times? (Revelation 12:1-12) Would Christendom recognize as King the “Lamb of God,” when he stood up on heavenly Mount Zion?….To these questions history gives as its answer World War I. In the very heart of Christendom it broke out in the summer of 1914. It continued into the fall of 1918”

    From this quote one could draw the conclusion that Jehovah was still, in 1914, indecisive as to whether the Catholic church was fit to represent His interests on Earth ! It appears it was only WW1 and Christendoms refusal to recognize the “reality” of the Invisible reign of Christ that decided Gods mind. Meanwhile, the same old history of the WT organization again resurfaces and is quoted as “proof” of the interpretation that the Org was captive to Babylon

    “On July 17, 1917, this Society published and put into their hands the book entitled “The Finished Mystery,”.. On Sunday, December 30, 1917, there was a general distribution of the large, four-page tract, Bible Students Monthly No. 99, with the feature article “The Fall of Babylon,” with quotations from The Finished Mystery. Within two months from then that book and the Bible Students Monthly were banned in Canada. Shortly afterward the banning of these in the United States followed. Then came the arrest and trial of the president of the Watch Tower Society and seven others of the office personnel of the Society. On June 21, 1918, they were sentenced each to eighty years’ imprisonment in a Federal penitentiary….Christian Bible Students, who had been proclaiming Jehovah’s judgments against Babylon the Great, found themselves in a captive condition under her power, and with their worldwide organization broken up… Like ancient Babylon, which never opened the prison doors to let Jehovah’s witnesses out, modern Babylon the Great thought to keep the modern Christian witnesses of Jehovah suppressed and in captivity forever. But in March of 1919 the prison doors were forced open to Jehovah’s witnesses, and out they came and stayed out”

    Nothing more is claimed as support for the belief in Babylons fall than the release of the ” Watchtower 7” from jail! The very fact they are released from the can is proof that “Babylon” fell and that the Saints were “resurrected”. As this final quote shows, Babylon was condemned to fall because of her conduct POST 1914.

    BABYLON THE GREAT HAS FALLEN (1963) : “Jehovah’s witnesses were again free, boldly proclaiming God’s kingdom publicly! What had happened? It must have been that Babylon the Great had fallen! This, although she had not yet been destroyed. The Lamb of God on the heavenly Mount Zion had played his role as the Liberator greater than Cyrus but as foreshadowed by Cyrus…. Condemned by her misconduct since the end of the Gentile Times in 1914, she stood condemned before the heavenly tribunal of Jehovah God. His judgment was rendered against her, and she fell in the spring of the year 1919.”

    The matter of the Fall of Babylon is discussed over 5 pages in the 1963 “Babylon Book”, Interesting to note thru those 5 pages is the sparcity of scriptural quotation as backing for the claimed fulfillment. Though no specific date for Babylons fall is offered, doubtless the WT Conceives that it coincided, largely, with the release of the WT7 from the hoosgow.

  • petespal2002
    petespal2002

    Just out of interest, why do you only mainly refer to old publications which even the active members claim to be "out of date" in some aspects?

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day R.F.,

    We might add that the reasoning displayed in the above quotes pre-supposes the Borg's interpretation of Babylon the Great i.e. it is who they say it is.

    Trouble is, no-one really knows. There's many a thought on this in Bible commentaries but nothing that all Christians agree on. This isn't surprising, given that Revelation is an apocalyptic book, and so we can't expect to identify every detail in a literal way.

    So the above quotes describe a theory (Babylon the Great fell in 1919) based on an assumption (that Babylon the Great=false religion).

    That's not safe ground for a religious empire like the Borg to "hand its hat" upon.

    Cheers, Ozzie

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    "why do you only mainly refer to old publications which even the active members claim to be "out of date" in some aspects?"

    Because being an old timer, im most familiar with the older publications. I never read a WT publication printed after 1980 till just the other month. As for claiming to be "out of date" I dont buy such theories. Ever shifting "Present truth" interpretations and Spiritualized fullfillments of literal expectations are bogus excuses in my book .

  • greven
    greven

    This quote interested me:

    On July 17, 1917, this Society published and put into their hands the book entitled “The Finished Mystery,”.. On Sunday, December 30, 1917, there was a general distribution of the large, four-page tract, Bible Students Monthly No. 99, with the feature article “The Fall of Babylon,” with quotations from The Finished Mystery.

    You would think that they were predicting the fall of Babylon based on this quote. But what did The Finished Mystery actually say about this?

    *** The Finished Mystery 118-9 ***

    And it was said unto them.— Not actually, but by the teachings of the parallel dispensations, which show that as Christ was raised from the dead in A. D. 33, the sleeping saints would be raised 1845 years later, in the Spring of 1878. See Rev. 3:14, 20.

    That they should rest yet for a little season.— Greek Chronos, 360 years. See Rev. 2:21. This is the item which Pastor Russell had in mind in the following footnote: "When, in a succeeding volume, we examine the wonderful visions of the Revelator, it will be clearly seen that the time here pointed out by the word ‘henceforth,' as marked by events, synchronizes closely with 1878, as indicated by the prophecies herein noted." (C241.) Luther nailed the proclamation on the church door at Wittenberg Oct. 31, 1517, which was already one month into the year 1518, Jewish reckoning. But it took some time for the news to travel to all parts of Europe. Three hundred and sixty years from the Spring of 1518 brings us to the Spring of 1878, when we understand that God's promise made to the sleeping saints was fulfilled. They were raised from the dead, and Babylon was cast off.

    *** The Finished Mystery 226 ***

    [Ezechiel] 14:16. And He that sat on the cloud.— The Lord Jesus, during His Parousia, overruling and withholding the Time of Trouble.Thrust in His sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.— Reading verses 13-16 connectedly, we note that the resurrection of the sleeping saints is recorded, and is immediately followed by the Harvest. This suggests that the Harvest proper began in 1878; and that the three and a half years prior to the spring of 1878 was devoted to preliminary work, but not to Harvest work in the full sense. It was not proper to say "Come out of her, My people," until Babylon was cast off, in the Spring of 1878.— Rev. 3:14; Matt. 13:30; 24:31.

    *** The Finished Mystery 273 ***

    Saying, [Babylon the great is] fallen, is BABYLON THE GREAT [fallen]. — "The expression, ‘ Babylon is fallen,' indicates that at some time a sudden and utter rejection is to come upon Babylon, when all favor will forever cease, and when judgments will follow — just such a rejection as we have shown was due in 1878." — C155; Isa. 13:19-22; 21:9; Jer. 51:8-13; Rev. 14:8; 16:59.

    Funny isn't it? They were preaching something totally different!

    Greven

  • Loris
    Loris

    Petespal2002

    There you have the primary reason Refinersfire’s research is so valuable. When you take his research and add Greven’s contribution of an earlier publication you get a Bombshell. The WTS has done the old hokas-pokas routine for more than a hundred years. They refer the reader to an out of print publication as proof of whatever, knowing that the reader does not have access to the older publication. Few Dubs have either the Babylon book or the Finished Mystery book so the WTS is in the clear to throw it into their hair-brained proof of whatever suits their fancy.

    Thank you Refinersfire and Greven for a major contribution to the mountain of proof against the WTS.

    Loris

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire
    On July 17, 1917, this Society published and put into their hands the book entitled “The Finished Mystery,”.. On Sunday, December 30, 1917, there was a general distribution of the large, four-page tract, Bible Students Monthly No. 99, with the feature article “The Fall of Babylon,” with quotations from The Finished Mystery.

    You would think that they were predicting the fall of Babylon based on this quote. But what did The Finished Mystery actually say about this? ".....

    Brother Greven. I realize that when I was deeply researching the dub history and still emotionally involved, I would have rationalized away this point you have made. It was the "Bible students monthly no 99" which,in their statement, appeared to be spirit guided in predicting Babylons fall. Not the finished mystery. The organization is super hard to really pin down in a trap isnt it. This quote from Finished Mystery is an interesting one:

    "Greek Chronos, 360 years. See Rev. 2:21......Luther nailed the proclamation on the church door at Wittenberg Oct. 31, 1517, which was already one month into the year 1518, Jewish reckoning. But it took some time for the news to travel to all parts of Europe. Three hundred and sixty years from the Spring of 1518 brings us to the Spring of 1878,".....

    When Babylon, of course, fell. Many of their old landmark events, commencing the prophetic periods, are much more impressive than their current ones. I should say current ONE, because the only "landmark" now is WW1. Lol. I think the old interpretation of the "Little Horn" of Daniel being the Papacy is a much better arguement than their current lame ass one about Britain overthrowing the Dutch and Spanish empires. Anyway, the Adventists already have them, so I guess its pretty hard to claim being Gods sole channel of Truth when the 7th Day adventists possessed half of your "truth" before You did. lol brother.

    Hi Loris. Yes, we old timers. hopefully, do serve SOME usefull purpose here.

  • greven
    greven

    The point I made was that if Bible Students Monthly No. 99 used Quotations from The Finished Mystery they could not be predicting the fall of babylon because -according to them at the time- this event had already commenced (1878). In effect they confuse (deliberate or not) the current meaning with the old one, trying to insinuate a prediction where there is none.

    But yes, the way things are written makes it often hard to pin them down.

    Thanx, Loris! Reading the old stuff is very entertaining!

    Greven

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Yeah Grev. I see what you mean

    I guess it doesnt matter what the Finished Mystery SAYS. All that matters is what it symbolizes, and it symbolizes AN EXPOSE of Christendom that stirred the clergy into "A WHITE HEAT OF HATE".

    Theyve got their little slogans that explain everything. How many times have you heard this one? :

    "I MADE AN ASS OF MYSELF".

    A Dead Watchtower president taking the cop for failed predictions there. Lets the FDS channel off the hook

  • greven
    greven

    AN EXPOSE of Christendom that stirred the clergy into "A WHITE HEAT OF HATE

    Yep! That's how they describe it!

    "I made an ass of myself" was done by The Judge right? However, I did not find this statement made by him in print AT THAT TIME. Was it simply an admission to the GB at the time? I wonder about this because in official writings after 1925 the blame was put on the individual member, not The Judge...Obviously he didn't proclaim him being an ass as much as he did proclaim the return of the ancient worthies....

    Thanx for your research, your digging into the past brings up a lot of mud the society wishes to forget.

    Greven

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