Why Are You Here? (page 5)

Simon

the reality of loving, all wise, Creator God

For future reference: We do have a jokes and humour section that you can post in.

Ucantnome. What I said is blind faith is a faith that is gutted of spiritual reality. It is probably founded on mundane things, such as believing ones salvation depends on obeying a body of men or their interpretations and reinterpretations of prophecy. Believing that something will happen in a certain year is not a spiritual reality. Such a faith is a faith founded on a religious teaching or assumption, but not necessarily faith in a living God. I think if we can distinguish the different between believing in God and believing in religion, we will make a giant step forward.

Ucantnome

It is probably founded on mundane things, such as believing ones salvation depends on obeying a body of men or their interpretations and reinterpretations of prophecy.

I think that my parents accepted the 'truth' on the basis that 1914 ended the gentile times and that Christ invisible 2nd presence had begun. They accepted this on the evidence that the JW who called on them supplied. I don't think that my father believed his salvation depended on obeying a body of men. He believed they that there was a group of people who were chosen to be a faithful and discreet slave class and give out spiritual food at the proper time in line with the acceptance of the beliefs surrounding 1914 as fulfilment of Matthew 24:14.

I think if we can distinguish the different between believing in God and believing in religion

I think we can but not i'm not sure of it's value

LostGeneration

the reality of loving, all wise, Creator God

Real to who? You? That doesn't make it real to everyone. Its these assertions that drive us "animals" as you referred to us in your OP crazy. Just because you have an invisible sky friend doesn't make said sky friend "real".

Village Idiot

Believer, I've been out of the Jws, physically and mentally, for 35 years but I still drop in for two reasons.

First, to keep up with what they're doing. I should not really care but I live in an apartment complex of over 100 units virtually all of them JWs (and many df'd and inactive ones).

Second, this is an excellent forum for discussion on non-JW social/political issues.

As an atheist I do see that there is no respect by some and threads started by believers get hijacked. I have seen threads posted with the title asking that only believers participate but that doesn't keep the critics away.

Maybe Simon can create a special sub forum for believers only or moderators can enforce certain rules. That might attract more members like you to this site.

Giordano

Believer I have followed your OP's on both of your threads and commend the gentleness of your rebuttals or generous amplification of a point.

However in your opening statement on this thread and further remarks I was concerned that a new Believer was revealing himself.

From Believer: "So maybe i'll compare the faith haters here with them"

We have people here who had to swallow a lot of ignorance as a JW, people who had their families torn apart, lost loved ones for lack of a blood transfusion. There are many things to hate about the doctrine's, the corporate mentality and reckless behavior of the WTBT$, but in general simply retaining a belief in a Creator and/or a God is not one of those things anyone hates. What is challenged is saying ignorant and harmful things in defense of one's beliefs.

"As former JWs we should have had our fill of judgmental know-it-alls, but here we are."

Here you are you mean as you are saying judgmental things. I don't believe anyone has told you that you can't believe in a God or Jesus.

We have had a number of faith based individuals show up and expect to be taken seriously as they promote their version of Christian theology as the truth or try to promote creation science. People who know their science refute those claims.

"Though I've only been a member for a few days I've been lurking for 2-3 years."

Your lurking years should have prepared you for robust discussions especially if you are promoting a faith based belief.

The reason someone is usually pressed to defend a statement is because they have arrived at a conclusion but can not provide facts to back it up. Or the science they claim to know is simply not supported by factual information. Being pressed to provide evidence or an intelligent point of view is something a lurker doesn't experience.

You also said "So I guess the other reason I keep checking in, I must confess, is like the fascination of watching a train wreck."

If I understand you correctly this forum for you is like watching a Train Wreck??

I 'll tell you about train wrecks.......it's the abused and often confused ex JW's who arrive here and at other forums who are in a world of pain. Who have lost their identity, their loved ones even long term friendships. Who have heath issues and mental issues. Who need to be around people who will help them get well. Who help and encourage them to use critical thinking skills so they can find a way. And if part of that way is to believe in a god then so be it. Nobody gets tossed out of here because they believe.

"But why are you here? What do you get out of this forum that makes it worth putting up with the attacks from self proclaimed animals? "

I'd appreciate you explaining that. With all of us being considered mentally diseased apostates..... with many upset to learn that that expression is how our families are told to think of us you want to call us 'self proclaimed animals....really?

Gio

P.S. For all of you beautiful non believers and beautiful believers Happy Father's Day!!

Believer

Ucantnome, Being able to distinguish the different between believing in God and believing in religion can make a big difference, especially for Jws who are still active in the religion. Many of them can’t tell the difference between God and the GB. If they could, they would probably wake up to the error much sooner.

LV101

This site is so informative/educational. Ditto what Witness My Fury/ Vidquin on the first page say and I'm sure there are many others I'm in agreement with. Although highly dangerous -- cults and belief systems are very interesting.

Ucantnome

Many of them can’t tell the difference between God and the GB

when i was an active JW my father said to me as an active JW himself before the end you will have to decide. At the time I felt a certain amount of fear, how could I decide.

Believer

Giordano, i want to answer your comments:

From Believer: "So maybe i'll compare the faith haters here with them"
We have people here who had to swallow a lot of ignorance as a JW, people who had their families torn apart, lost loved ones for lack of a blood transfusion. There are many things to hate about the doctrine's, the corporate mentality and reckless behavior of the WTBT$, but in general simply retaining a belief in a Creator and/or a God is not one of those things anyone hates. What is challenged is saying ignorant and harmful things in defense of one's beliefs.

I hope that is true. But I get the distinct impression that there are many here who actual hate the mere idea of faith itself, and probably wouldn’t make an exception for whether one has a faith in God or a faith in a religion. But I’ll let them speak for themselves. Those of you who are nonbelievers, do you hate faith?

"As former JWs we should have had our fill of judgmental know-it-alls, but here we are."
Here you are you mean as you are saying judgmental things. I don't believe anyone has told you that you can't believe in a God or Jesus.

I didn’t say that anyone had. I can’t imagine anyone in their right mind saying you CANNOT believe in God or Jesus. When I refer to ‘judgmental know-it-alls’ I’m referring to people who judge others who don’t think the way they think. People who don’t have a live and let live mentality, or at least have difficulty expressing it if they do.

"Though I've only been a member for a few days I've been lurking for 2-3 years."
Your lurking years should have prepared you for robust discussions especially if you are promoting a faith based belief.

First, I am not promoting anything. So far, I’ve only raised questions and defended myself when challenged. As I said in an earlier post, I knew what I was getting into before I joined. And though I was a little apprehensive at first, turns out its just typed words on a screen. I can handle that.

You also said "So I guess the other reason I keep checking in, I must confess, is like the fascination of watching a train wreck."
If I understand you correctly this forum for you is like watching a Train Wreck??

Yeah, that was a bad choice of words and a little insensitive. I apologize for that.

"But why are you here? What do you get out of this forum that makes it worth putting up with the attacks from self proclaimed animals? "
I'd appreciate you explaining that. With all of us being considered mentally diseased apostates..... with many upset to learn that that expression is how our families are told to think of us you want to call us 'self proclaimed animals....really?

Here, I was just repeating what Great Teacher and I think Starting Over said on the prior thread. They said they believe they are just animals and can’t stand people who don’t believe they, too, are just animals. I don’t accept that. I believe humans have an animal nature, but we also have something mere animals don’t, one among them being our spiritual potential. And so when i referred to 'self-proclaimed animals' I was only referring to those people who proclaim themselves to be animals.

Why Are You Here?

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