The idea that there are thousands of churches with different ideas on salvation is promoted mainly by the cults for obvious self-serving reasons.
Heaven help me, I have a point of agreement with Sea Breeze!
Is Jesus God?
by Sea Breeze 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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nicolaou
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slimboyfat
You can read anything into the NT if you like but some readings are more credible than others. For example the idea the messiah is an angelic being who came to earth and who rules as God’s vice regent was a Jewish idea that clearly resonates with the presentation of a Jesus in the NT. The idea that Jesus is one person of a tri-personal God, eternally begotten, not made, and that he has two natures was an idea that was developed centuries later than the NT and therefore much more difficult to try to squeeze into the Bible.
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Sea Breeze
The idea that Jesus is one person of a tri-personal God, eternally begotten, not made, and that he has two natures was an idea that was developed centuries later than the NT
@SBF
That is identical to WT theology. Here's my rebuttal to that on the previous page. Care to comment on the points:
The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
And elsewhere in Scripture:
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
And in writings of early church leaders trained by the apostles:
Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110])“To the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God”. “For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).
Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
And the many good points from "Got Questions":
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God.
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as God, indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
I think Jesus' prediction that he would resurrect himself from the dead, while he was dead is the very best evidence he was God. It is far better than a simple proclamation which anyone can do, as I previously pointed out. This is the nail in the coffin on any doubt as to the deity of Jesus.
The reason this issue is so important is becasue we are saved by a legal agreement called (and described in Mt. 26: 27-28) the new covenant (New Contract). Rather than being a national contract like the one mediated by Moses in the OT, this one is a personal agreement with only two names on it - Jesus and the believer.
If you make an agreement with the wrong Jesus, your contract isn't valid. -
TonusOH
Sea Breeze: If you make an agreement with the wrong Jesus, your contract isn't valid.
Sounds like he is a stickler for technicalities. If he paid a price to redeem me, why not just apply it and save me? Or, better yet, forgive me without a messy blood sacrifice? No need to complicate things when you're the master of reality, after all.
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peacefulpete
The interchangeability of "Wisdom" "Spirit" "Word" "Son of God" in Intertestamental and NT texts is indicative that the Christ figure was perceived more than simply a man named "Jesus". He/it/she was God's hands and voice. There is no contradiction in these writings in saying the Holy Spirit/Wisdom was created by God and at the same time saying the Holy Spirit was God.
Leolaia did a bang-up job as aways reviewing this topic.
The Holy Spirit.
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Sea Breeze
TonusOH: Sounds like he is a stickler for technicalities. If he paid a price to redeem me, why not just
apply it and save me?Because you have to receive the payment. Michael the Archangel didn't make the payment for you. Somewhat cryptically Abraham noted that Jehovah would provide himself as a sacrifice:
And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father...and he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb - Gen. 22: 7-8
It is your sinful nature this is opposed to accepting the terms of God. Sinful man is never satisfied with much of anything.... always wanting more, even from God. Cain had a similar objection:
Cain and Abel, "in the course of time” brought offerings to the Lord (Genesis 4:3). Without doubt, they were doing this because God had revealed to them the necessity of a sacrifice. God probably gave some details of what was acceptable, although those instructions are not included in the Genesis narrative.
Abel brought “the best portions of the firstborn lambs from his flock” (Genesis 4:4, NLT). Cain was a farmer, and his offering was “some of his crops” (Genesis 4:4, NLT).Cain was really put off when his offering wasn't accepted. So, he (in effect) shook his fist at heaven and said, "That should have good enough for you"!
Unable to attack God, he murdered his brother in a jealous rage instead.
Receiving the payment from the right Jesus is crucial. It would be like providing a million dollar ransom with counterfeit bills and wondering why it wasn't acceptable.
Of course, logic doesn't really matter much when our very nature is opposed to God. The sinful nature can't be redeemed, it must die one way or another. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus three times that we must be "born again". The sinful self naturally doesn't want to die. But, the last time I checked, the death rate has been hovering steadily around 100%. So, logically, it really shouldn't matter to us. There is no down-side.
But, like I said, logic doesn't really matter much when you are fighting for your "life".... the one that will end in a few short years anyway.
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TonusOH
Sea Breeze: Because you have to receive the payment.
Why?
Sea Breeze: Michael the Archangel didn't make the payment for you.
Why not?
God is not helpless and he is not limited. No one can prevent him from taking any action he wishes. He is not restricted by rules- he makes the rules. Nothing prevents him from forgiving me without pageantry. My "sinful nature" is the result of his design and his decisions. Blaming me doesn't make sense; it makes him seem weak.
If god wants everyone to be saved and to serve with him eternally in heaven, it is within his power to do so. If he chose to do this, no one could prevent it. Our present condition can only be a result of his design and his decisions. God said that the road to destruction was wide and well-traveled, but few would find the path to salvation. If he did not want this, it would not happen. The only person who can put obstacles in god's way is god.
A god who actively works to undermine his own plans, blames his failure on the sandbox that he designed and built, sets up rules that further hinder his desires, and pretends to be helpless to fix it without action from others... makes no sense. Such a being cannot exist.
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Sanchy
"It is your sinful nature this is opposed to accepting the terms of God. Sinful man is never satisfied with much of anything.... always wanting more, even from God."
Yes, this is all that "God" asks of us:
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PioneerSchmioneer
If there were any clear claims by Jesus or his apostles that he was God there would never have been
- Docetism: the claim that Jesus was God in an apparent or "phantom" body
- Separationism: that divinity only dwelt in Jesus of Nazareth from his baptism until his death
- Modalism: that God exists under there "modes" of activity instead of three persons, namely the modes of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Separationism--a time when Jesus was not God? How could God not be God for 30 years--and your followers decide when you became God and stopped being God?
Modalism? Trinitarianism? How do your followers decide how much of you is God and how many of "you" make up God?
Modalism was the favored view of Christians during the 2nd and the beginning of the 3rd centuries.
Why all these debates and heresies in the early church about Jesus among the Christians if it's all supposed to be so clear to begin with--if Jesus made it crystal clear that he is God?
