Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Breeze- So, when Jesus presented Himself as a shepherd to Israel, He was claiming to be the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. This means that the sheep are Israelites. So, when Jesus said that he had "other sheep" not of this fold, he is saying that he is going to one-day shepherd non-Israelites as well.

    This is the conclusion I eventually also arrived at. And as you said, it just seemed common sense.

    The anointed vs great crowd (JWs other sheep) JW teaching seems to be a result from the assertion that there will be a future paradise on Earth. Therefore, someone has to inhabit it. (vs just heaven and hell, two destinations instead of 3)

    What I've also come to conclude is that this parsing between interpretations of biblical verses seems a bit overdone. In other words, if you're on the side of Jesus then anything that happens to you afterwards will be good. If not, it will be unpleasant to say the least.

    JW states that there is only ONE faith that will take you to the 'promised land'... whatever that is (it will be undoubtedly good). Yet, when I see the sincerity of people in their faith in Christ, it seems that doctrinal details become less important.

    Is it less about doctrine technicalities, and more so about just sincerely taking a side?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    The anointed vs great crowd (JWs other sheep) JW teaching seems to be a result from the assertion that there will be a future paradise on Earth. Therefore, someone has to inhabit it.

    The people who inhabit the Millenium Reighn on earth are survivors of the Great Tribulation.

    1. They are not church-age Christians because they are all raptured to heaven by this time

    2. They are not tribulation saints because most if not all will have been martyred during the GT.

    3. Doing the math in Revelation; It looks like around 2/3 of the worlds population will have been killed during the reign of the Anti-Christ.

    4. So, there will still be billions of people after the GT who are sorta standing around wondering what happened. It is at this point that Jesus assumes the throne in Jerusalem and commences with the "Judgment of the Nations" . The Watchtower calls this the Judgment of the sheep and the goats. Some are let in and some are not, based on their treatment of the Jews during the GT.

    Mt. 25 - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    The WT teaches that current JW members are in the group of people who will survive Armageddon. (Remember they backed up Christ's return to 19144) They also deny the rapture. Then they try to confuse the issue by claiming that modern Christians don't need to be part of the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" (See Mt. 26: 27-28)

    And this is what it is all about. It is an excuse to reject the NC every Lord's Supper so that JW's CANNOT be saved by virture of Christ's blood.... which is the offer on the table for church-age believers.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Then they try to confuse the issue by claiming that modern Christians don't need to be part of the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" (See Mt. 26: 27-28)
    And this is what it is all about. It is an excuse to reject the NC every Lord's Supper so that JW's CANNOT be saved by virture of Christ's blood.... which is the offer on the table for church-age believers.

    If I'm following you correctly, the point of the WT is to prevent witnesses from eating and drinking at the Lord's supper.

    Altho this is certainly accomplished in a literal way, sincere jws are still choosing the side of Christ. Meaning, those that truly have faith in the general 'life saving' message.

    It doesn't seem plausible that God would punish a person who has chosen correctly in their heart on account of following incorrect directions. That seems to be placing more importance on the ritual than the principal itself.

  • FragrantAddendum
    FragrantAddendum

    the emblems aren't some kind of magic go-go berry juice

    taking or not taking the emblems has nothing to do with having faith in christ

    the emblems were a reminder for individuals of the 144,000

    faithful christians don't need to partake of wine and crackers in order to have faith

    in fact, many who partake (like the gb) have no faith at all and are unapproved by christ

    just be good

    it's not complicated

    he said love was the important thing

    not crackers and wine

  • FragrantAddendum
    FragrantAddendum

    @seabreeze, what is your goal here?

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    just be good
    it's not complicated
    he said love was the important thing
    not crackers and wine

    That's basically the gist of it from what I can tell...not to say that being good is easy and automatic. But then, that's where Jesus comes in, making us complete where we are incomplete.

    It' s a little bit of a contradiction when one says 'believe that Christ died for you is all you need' but then go parsing doctrinal minutae to demonstrate proof.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @Halcon

    sincere jws are still choosing the side of Christ.

    There are no scriptures that indicate a person's sincerity is in any way connected to salvation from judgment. That is little more than self idolatry.

    If I'm following you correctly, the point of the WT is to prevent witnesses from eating and drinking at the Lord's supper.

    Not per se. The point of the Watchtower is to take as many people to hell as possible. Since salvation is open to everyone and is very simple to understand, it requires a LOT of indoctrination to hide how simple it really is to be a member of God's family.

    All their elaborate theological schemes are designed to do one thing: camouflage the simplicity of Christ so that people are easier to deceive:

    2 Cor. 11: 3 I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent deceived Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus (KJV)

    When I left the WT, I wanted nothing to do with theology. But over the next 8 years it bothered me that the scriptures that applied to my well being and salvation seemed to be the same ones that Watchtower was bending over backwards to pervert. It was just too much of a coincidence for me and it piqued my interest.

    So, how easy is it to get saved?

    Romans 10: 9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Pretty simple. So, what does WT do? They say Jehovah is Lord instead of Jesus, and they claim Jesus was not resurrected but his body was turned into gases. They also claim that Jesus was really Michael the Archangel..... which is preaching "another Jesus".

    So, right off the bat the simplicity of Salvation is destroyed by Watchtower for JW's. Here's another:

    Mt. 11: 28 - Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

    Do JW's go to Jesus? No, they go to Jehovah instead. They would NEVER be comfortable praying to Michael. So, another wonderful scripture is negated for JW's by WT.


    Then, there's the official offer:
    Matt. 26: 27-28 - Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    The biblical term for having your sin debt erased is called Justification.


    Romans 5: 1,9 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ - being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath (KJV)


    So here again, a simple offer to cancel your sin debt (not Adam) is obfuscated in the minds of JW's.
    Are you starting to see a pattern? I did. It made me realize I had been in a very carefully orchestrated scheme designed to rob me of what Jesus accomplished for me. Before this, I simply wrote the WT off as baffoons. Whether WT leaders know it or not, That was not the case at all.

    Here's the simple condition we are all in:

    John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already. KJV


    The bread and wine at the Lord's Supper holds no magical power. It is the fact that JW's don't believe Jesus is offering what he says he's offering that is taking them to hell. In other words, after Calvary; whom you believe determines where you will spend eternity since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just believers. The curse of death is just flat out BROKEN..

    People are not condemned because that aren't sincere enough. They are not condemned because they don't have all the endtimes events worked out yet.

    They are condemned for the same reason Eve was - She didn't believe God.

    Whom you believe is the real objective of Watchtower.

    Get it?

  • NotFormer
  • FragrantAddendum
    FragrantAddendum

    @notformer - amen!

    jesus said the samaritan was closer to truth

    it wasn't because of the idols he worshipped

    it was because he showed love

    (the other guys who pretended to be "clean" just walked on by)

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Romans 10: 9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    Pretty simple. So, what does WT do? They say Jehovah is Lord instead of Jesus, and they claim Jesus was not resurrected but his body was turned into gases.

    Jesus resurrected - Jesus returned to life; no longer dead

    Just about every JW I know has literally declared this with their literal mouth.

    Jesus didn't get technical about the word resurrected. Back in the flesh, gases, etc. The point is he was non living, and returned to life. All JWs believe this.

    There are no scriptures that indicate a person's sincerity is in any way connected to salvation from judgment. That is little more than self idolatry.

    How would you explain how Jesus forgave the criminal hanging next to him on the cross?

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