How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

by Vanderhoven7 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    other thread TD said:

    In JW theology, there was only one hope from Pentecost clear up until the supposed proximity of the end made the identification of the Great Crowd possible.

    "For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)

    It is not possible for "Other Sheep" to exist as a class apart from the "Great Crowd" in the Christian era. (Again in JW theology) John only saw two groups, not three.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    According to sociologist Rodney Stark there may have been as few as 40,000 Christians by mid second century when JWs believe the great apostasy was well under way. So their numbers would fit neatly with this model, allowing for 40,000 early Christians and 100,000 faithful wheat among the weeds over the centuries, and during the last days.


  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    @ Slim

    I see you do not trust the biblical record: 3000 @ Pentecost alone, followed by 5000 followed by multitude after multitude in Acts of the Holy Spirit.

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister
    Slim According to sociologist Rodney Stark there may have been as few as 40,000 Christians by mid second century when JWs believe the great apostasy was well under way. So their numbers would fit neatly with this model,

    Yes. I was aware of his model and thought it would fit with the JW theory. Funnily enough Bart Ehrman recently mentioned the sparsity
    of early Christians in a talk/interview with Megan on Digital Humurabi. I think he was talking about the very early years, though - partly the reason for lack of documentation??

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    By the year 350 AD, there were almost 34 million Christians. The WTS teaching would mean that nearly every single one was an apostate, wouldn't it?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Exactly Tonus.

    And they know there were less than 150,000 real Christians from Pentecost till the start of the 20th century because of a number theory. And yet they say they don't judge anyone; they leave it all to Jehovah.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    TonusOH, not much different than the claim that most of the 2 billion who currently claim to be Christians are mistaken. If you’re inclined to accept or reject one you’re already inclined to accept or reject the other.

    Vanderhoven7 it is Stark who argued that the figures in Acts are unreliable, not me.

    What Stark’s projection shows is that it’s perfectly possible that Christianity got off to a slow start in the first century and yet nevertheless became the majority religion by the mid 4th century. The line could easily have been steeper in the first decade and then slower after that, which would be compatible both with the figures in Acts and the implication of Watcthower teaching that there were fewer than say 70,000 Christians in the first century.

    Remember Watchtower is not claiming that history can prove their idealised numbers are correct. It’s opponents of JWs who imply that their numbers are historically not possible. I think Stark’s projection shows that they are possible because growth from small numbers compounds slowly at first but gains momentum over time.

  • Nikolaus
    Nikolaus

    w72 7/1 p. 415

    Questions From Readers

    ● Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons?​—U.S.A.

    There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person’s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.” (1 Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive “the crown of life.”​—Rev. 2:10.

    Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness.

    While some persons may be inclined to think that more persons must surely have been involved even as far back as the early centuries of the Common Era, actual proof to this effect is completely lacking. Today it is impossible even to establish how many persons were killed, much less the number of those who proved faithful to death. “We have practically but few facts to go upon,” writes Frederick John Foakes-Jackson in the book History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge. He further states: “The testimony to the persecution by Nero is recorded by two Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, both of whom were very young when it occurred, and wrote in mature life. There is no contemporary Christian document describing it, though it may be alluded to in the book of Revelation. . . . Tertullian at the end of the second century is our authority that Nero and Domitian, because they were the two worst emperors in the first centuries, persecuted the Christians.” Early in the third century C.E., Origen (a Christian writer and teacher) observed: “There have been but a few now and again, easily counted, who have died for the Christian religion.”

    Much that has been written about Christian martyrs is embellished by tradition and therefore unreliable. For example, the martyrdom of Polycarp of the second century C.E. is described in Fox’s Book of Martyrs as follows: “He was . . . bound to a stake, and the faggots with which he was surrounded set on fire, but when it became so hot that the soldiers were compelled to retire, he continued praying and singing praises to God for a long time. The flames raged with great violence, but still his body remained unconsumed, and shone like burnished gold. It is also said, that a grateful odour like that of myrrh, arose from the fire, which so much astonished the spectators, that many of them were by that means converted to Christianity. His executioners finding it impossible to put him to death by fire, thrust a spear into his side, from which the blood flowed in such a quantity, as to extinguish the flame. His body was then consumed to ashes, by order of the proconsul lest his followers should make it an object of adoration.”

    Whatever the source of Fox’s information, manifestly little of this account is truly historical. Nevertheless, if the allusion to the adoration of the remains of Polycarp is to be viewed as indicating the existence of relic worship among professed Christians of the second century C.E., this would be additional evidence that many at that time were not faithful worshipers of Jehovah God. Christians were under command to “worship God,” not relics. (Rev. 19:10) In fact, idolaters are among those specifically named in the Scriptures as unfit to inherit the Kingdom.​—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.

  • no-zombie
    no-zombie

    Well according the the Governing Body, all those martyrs ... just weren't Christian enough.

    Its funny though, that Jehovah thought that they were good enough to compile the Bible. Yes the Bible canon (the list of books deemed to be inspired) wasn't assembled in the today's form before AD 367.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    @Slim

    I think you are aware that many do not accept Starks numerical guesswork.

    On what bases do you believe the writer of Acts was not operating under inspiration?

    What to you determines whether someone is a real verses a mere professed Christian? Or does that distinction actually exist in your thinking?

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