Speaking of magic and Disney, I found it especially ironic to discover that one of the heads of the animation department at Bethel has a smaller version of this sculpture of the Magic Brooms from the Sorcerer's Apprentice prominently displayed in his office
If Jehovah hates magic, why is it ok to go to Magic theme parks such as Disneyland the Magic Kingdom and not be disfellowshipped for it?
by Greybeard 27 Replies latest jw friends
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respectful_observer
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Perry
By anyones standards today, Jesus would be considered a healer, magician, wizard, sorcerer and psychic....... Maybe Jehovah hates magic because he wants to be the only one who can do it. Didn't Jesus free them from those old laws of Jehovah?
If Jesus was God incarnate like he presented himself to be, and as the apostles believed him to be, ie.
1. the angels should worship him
2. He created the heavens and the earth
3. Hebrews Ch. 1 & Rev. Ch. 1
4. He had the authority to forgive sins committed against God, something only God can do
Then, the source of his power was not the occult but from THE SOURCE of all energy, knowledge, wisdom. God rightly asks to acknowledge Him as the only legitimate source of power, and as the one that will teach us to wield this power with responsibility consistent with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Your comments on the power of words is interesting. I have given a lot of thought to this in recent years. I have come to the conclusion that There is great power in words, not in an occult kind of way, although it could be. And,not necessarily just from a born again child of God.
God spoke the worlds into existence. We are created in his image. Could he have left a vestige of this spoken creativity in the human design? I sense that our words have some effect on possible realities that are coming our way as we pass through space/time ether.
"if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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corruptgirl
My JW friend won't go to Tower of Terror in Hollywood studios or Haunted house in Magic Kingdom...that stuff never bothered me. It is hypocritical to go to disney now that I think about it because it's all about Magic but All JW'S go and have a blast! I live in South Florida so I guess maybe it's more common in our congregations.
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Greybeard
Hi Perry and thank you for your comment.
The occult (from the Latin word occultus "clandestine, hidden, secret") is "knowledge of the hidden". In common English usage, occult refers to "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable", usually referred to as science.
Would you say Jesus had access to hidden knowledge? To be honest with you, I would trust a person who practices Yoga, classified as occult by many, more than I trust most people who claim to be Christian. I am not into Yoga, I haven't had much opportunity yet but I like what I have learned so far about it. To me, they sound way more like Jesus then your modern day Christian. Jesus said, "you are Gods" and he also said, "you are children of God." He said we could do all the things he did and that has to includes forgiving sins if healing really is possible as he said. That means we are one with God in my book. Did he not say, let them become one as we are one?
As far as the Bible goes, who put those 66 books together? The Roman Catholic Church. Many books were cast out like the book of Enoch and many others. You might as well be a Catholic if you claim the Bible to be 100% accurate. I have seen hideous Bible changes in my own life time. Can you imagine what must have happened in the first century?
Jesus did not say God would use a book to communicate with us. He didn't say build churches and Kingdom Halls. According to Jesus, God speaks though holy spirit, he does not need a man written book. (1 John 2:27) People who are disconnected (third eye blind) need something tangible they can hold and see and use to judge others with. The book of LAW. He did not say he would use men to teach us. He said I am your only teacher, have no leader but me. He said he would send Holy Spirit. He also called the God of the Jews a man slayer and father of lies. When he quoted scripture he would say things like, "Is in not written in YOUR law." So if it was his WORD, he didn't claim it!
I believe we can learn much from the Bible but I do no believe it is Gods holy unadulterated word like I was taught growing up. Man has used it to control people. Religion has used it to rule over people. Jesus did his best to free us from the scribes and pharisees.
Who would you trust more, a person who claims he can do whatever the hell he wants, then repent in the blood of Jesus or a person who believes he is accountable for his own actions? The law of Karma taught by Yoga makes more logical since to me then the book of law that says as you quoted, ""if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
For that to be true, the word "confess" must mean more than simply giving lip service to Jesus. You must act like Jesus and Jesus was all about NOT judging others, he was all about unconditional love. He even prayed for and forgave those who killed him.
I could go on and on about this subject but I will cool my jets... Peace :)
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." 1 Corinthians 8:2 NLT
I do have faith in Jesus but not the Jesus taught by religion today.
One last thought... Personally I believe from my experience. A Jehovah Witness would be shunned way more and possibly disfellowshipped for joining a Yoga class because it is considered "occult" yet its OK to go to Disneyland. How ridiculous is that? They might actually get healed if they join Yoga. We don't want that now do we.
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Perry
I don't mind the hot jets, burns the fuel more efficiently than on idle. I'm leaving for Europe shorty, so this will be my last post for a little bit. Just some from-the-hip thoughts to your comments:
Would you say Jesus had access to hidden knowledge?
I say that Jesus was unique. He was flesh and blood like you and me as the son of Mary. But I believe his spirit was the substance of God himself. That is why he could both truthfully say that the Father was greater than he, and at other times equate himself with God. He willingly made his human animal (flesh) subservient to his own Spirit, the essence of God himself. He was fully man and fully God.
With us it is different. We are not the Source, he was.
To be honest with you, I would trust a person who practices Yoga, classified as occult by many, more than I trust most people who claim to be Christian.
God says we are fools and cursed if we put trust in ANY men, that includes ourselves, since we are men.
"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm"
Did he not say, let them become one as we are one?
Yes. Unification with God comes when we abandon our self to him, through Christ and to Christ.
- "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
This is the kind of trust or faith that produces oneness with God. It is also the path to the power source.
As far as the Bible goes, who put those 66 books together? The Roman Catholic Church. ....Can you imagine what must have happened in the first century?
We have a very good record of Pre-Catholic 1st, 2nd & 3rd century writings of Christians.
Highly recommend :
Ancient Church Fathers: What the Disciples of the Apostles Taught by Ken Johnson
Caption:
The Ancient Church Fathers reveals the disciples of the twelve apostles, and what they taught, from their own writings. It documents that the same doctrine was faithfully transmitted to their descendants in the first few centuries. It also describes where, when, and by whom, the doctrines began to change. The ancient church fathers make it very easy to know for sure what the complete teachings of Jesus and the twelve apostles were. You will learn, from their own writings, what the first century disciples taught about the various doctrines that divide our church today. You will learn what was discussed at the Seven General Councils and why. You will learn about the cults and cult leaders who began to change doctrine and spread their heresy. And you will learn how those heresies became the standard teaching in the medieval church.All but a handful of verses in the New Testament are quoted in the writings of the disciples of the apostles, establishing the continuity of what the apostles taught.
The law of Karma taught by Yoga makes more logical since to me then the book of law that says as you quoted, ""if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
The dispensation of Law ended in the utter failure of Man to be good (enough), there was a judgment at that time and a new beginning....just like the prior dispensations. Doing good more and more is important, it is just not good enough for oneness with God and for salvation from sin and death. God didn't do away with our works in the age of Grace, he just cast off the source of that goodness and posited it with himself. This is offensive to our pride, but was demonstrably necessary.
For that to be true, the word "confess" must mean more than simply giving lip service to Jesus. You must act like Jesus and Jesus was all about NOT judging others, he was all about unconditional love. He even prayed for and forgave those who killed him.
And no one can do that without trusting in Jesus, and abandoning themselves to him ALONE....that is the key. Real Christian faith allows for trusting others, just not trusting in them. It also calls for going to a gathering of believers, but not trusting in that particular association.
We didn't do that with the WT. We put trust in them, and true to Gods word that I quoted earlier, we were cursed in many ways because of it.
Time for a new direction.
Peace, Favor & Blessing to you.
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zeb
I read in an account of life at bethel where someone put on the Disney animation film of Mickey mouse doing the Sorceres apprentice and it caused huge controversy!! It was about magic aarrghhh!
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Greybeard
Thank you Perry, well said. Peace and blessings to you too :)
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ttdtt
So Magic is bad right?
Why - because satan and the demons use it?? Huuu.
So...
1. Where do the Angels get power to do amazing acts recorded in the Bible? (God right)2. Where did the Angel that became Satan get his power when he was still a good boy? (God right)
So - what happened when Satan and his buds rebelled? Did they go to the Magic store to get their power?
Or - did they use the power that Dog gave them?So - isn't the power they have now - the same power they had when they were good little Angels?
So - the "bad" things Demons do now - is by means of Dogs power (Holy Spirit - or what ever you call it).
So 1. - its not magic since its the same power the Wonderful Jesus uses. (right)
and 2. - Why the hell did Dog not take their power away. It's like the police letting criminals go home with a cache of Uzzi's. (How loving Dog is)
p.s. Since Satan was not granted immortality like the big JC, then Dog must have to keep supplying Satan and his buds with all this Magical Power so they can do all the bad stuff they do.
HOW INSANE IS THIS!