by Sea Breeze 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
And before somebody asks...
It is an old thesis that went nowhere but I remember a few examples. It was philosophical because he asks the reader to first suspend belief that:
PioneerSchmioneer
I actually studied Samuelsson's thesis and sat in on what turned out to be an overblown reaction to his work that ended up being AP getting "egg on their face," so to speak.
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I am somewhat surprised by this comment as one reviewer stated in a Book Review of Samuelsson's thesis "His work is not to be ignored, despite the criticisms I have made. It is a valuable contribution to the debate".
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The work is a philosophical work not an etymological one (based on the science of language). It is not a critical theory nor does he claim it to be. He does suggest that religion and iconography more than language has more to do with what people know about the crucifixion, and this has shaped what people know about what the gospels say about the event.
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I disagree that this thesis is 'a philosophical work not an etymological one'. Samuelsson clearly states in his methodology that his research is philological and its introductory section discusses the role of lexicography in its treatment of stauros and other related terms.
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In making any review of published scholarship it is an academic practice to consider literature or book reviews published in academic journals and one such review by John Granger Cook among others is worthy of attention.
scholar JW
Dear scholar JW,
This is what he claims (among other things) does not exist in order for his arguments to work:
It is called the Alexamenos Graffito, and it hangs in the Palatine Museum in Rome. It is from the late 1st or early 2nd century. Etched on a slab, it was made by Romans making fun of a Christian. It states, in Greek:
"Alexamenos worships [his] God."
It is, of course, the etching of a man, worshiping a crucified person, with the crucified person being insulted by given the head of a donkey.
The cross is, of course, the shape of the type testified to by Josephus, Lucias, and secular writers were are also asked in this work to ignore (I am sure you remember because you write as though you have read this work).
Such an act has a name, to "suspend belief," and means to ignore facts or the truth in order to momentarily believe in something, like a work of fiction or a fairy tale.
So say and believe what you want. I am not bothered one bit by your views. Your views are not facts, nor do they change realities.
The main conclusion regarding the terminology of crucifixion is that there does not appear to be any terminology of crucifixion — before the death of Jesus. All the mentioned terms share a crucial feature: none of them can be determined to mean “to crucify” or “cross” — by themselves. If this conclusion is correct, the majority of scholars have used an unsatisfactory method in their process of text selection. It is better to let the absence of fixed terminology illuminate the absence of a fixed punishment.
In short, he spends much time demonstrating just how the NT descriptions (albeit brief and implied) have colored interpretations of many other texts and resulted in unwarranted assumptions.
He concludes that it is most likely that at least some NT writers had a cross shaped implement in mind from expressions like stretch out arms, sign above head, nails in hands, and likely the carrying of the patibulum. This plus the evidence that the cross shape was in use in the first century, despite the WT claims otherwise.
However, as PioneerSchmioneer points out he also concludes that the symbolism of death by suspension had greater theological significance that seems to have dominated the conversation for most writers.
The Crosses of Pompeii presents a good case for the presence of Christians in Pompeii prior to AD 79. The apostle Paul visited the area. Jehovah's Witnesses who maintain that Jesus died on a pole should be especially interested.
PioneerSchmioner
The matter of whether Jesus died on a stake or cross can only be determined by the eyewitness testimony of those present at that time as recorded by the Gospel writers who all stated that it was a stauros which means a stake or pole. These facts are primary evidence and the use of some graffiti dated to the end of the First century proves nothing for there is simply no evidence that Jesus was hung on a two-pieces of timber placed at a right angle namely a cross.
scholar JW
Good info
When saving work in a computer program like Word the save icon is an image of a floppy disk 💾. No-one uses floppy disks anymore but use of the icon persists, to change it might actually cause confusion.
Just because use of the Greek word stauros persisted when referring to crucifixions doesn't mean that the Romans hadn't upgraded their crucifixion method.
Not that any of this really matters.
" Not that any of this really matters. " Exactly, though I have enjoyed the discussions on this, especially the erudite contributions from those like Leolaia, none of this is relevant if no one can prove that "Jesus" ever existed.
Phizzy....IMO the generally ambiguous references to the death, even the ambiguous terminology, all contribute to the theological development of the story.
First off there was no specific noun or verb that differentiated the Roman (or earlier) use of a two or more piece implement for execution (or postmortem public suspension). Therefore, insisting that the words used have any particular narrow definition is bringing something to the text. (unless the context makes clear what the author is describing.) All relevant terminology appears to have had usage beyond the simple etymology of the words. Such is typical of language.
As Phizzy pointed out, there is a larger question in play. Given the pre-Christian symbolism of public execution and suspension (on tree, pole) we have to consider whether the earliest pre-Gospel Christians had the Roman execution methods in mind at all. For example, Doherty's thesis concludes that at the foundation of Christianity is a passion play in the spirit realm that was euhemerized in the Gospel story through use of OT typology and the contemporary Roman domination of Israel. Without further expansion on this thought, I'll suggest that this is consistent with the issue under discussion. The NT has the concept of 'suspension' (with theological implications) foremost, not the particular shape of the implement, though in some contexts it seems clear they had a cross in mind.
