The Great Tribulation

by Fisherman 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Fisherman

  Will the great tribulation hurt individuals more than what Job, Jesus, Roman punishment, Naz&i Germany, Hiroshima, jail, capital punishment, disease, pain, terror, horror, soldier in the battlefield or some terrible pain people experience this very moment? How worse can pain and suffering get. It is very common. It is only great tribulation when you feel it personally.

  So what makes it the great tribulation is not how deadly or scary it is but because it is a world condition that everyone on the planet will experience at the same time and the threat of no flesh will be saved. So it is scary and painful and maybe humanity is facing extinction.
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  budbayview

  I ask why.

  Why have humans been relegated to the predestined words on a page? No hope, no way to change the trajectory? So, in my simple world that is predestination, yes? If we have the outcome beforehand, that is predestination. But, it also defines our mindset. I like to use the parental child relationship for my bases; as above so below. We know that if we as parents program our children negatively or continue to remind them they will not be successful, most will not be able to overcome that and will fail. We have been told that we are sinners, and unworthy of a direct relationship with god, we have been told that man cannot rule man, for example. I am not debating these but pointing out the negative programming. We were told that since our forefathers screwed the pooch, we are dead on arrival. Then things change up some in the New Testament with the messiah’s message. Perhaps if we hold our breath, stand on one leg and shoutout the gospels loud enough, there is a tiny tiny tiny chance we may have a shot at salvation. Really?

  Does this sound like the thoughts of the universal creator, or something other? The primary drivers here are fear and reward based. You get something good if you tow the line, or you get death (or something other) if not. So, at the end of the day we have been taught to love god for what he is giving us, or what (he) is taking away. I do not know about you, but I did not bring up my child in that way. I want his love, because he truly loves us, not because of what we can give him or take away. Fear and reward systems are short lived. Notwithstanding, if you are king and use those motivating/control mechanisms you will never know who your true and loyal subjects are.

  But I digress, back to the point of the tribulation. If we know the end, why are were living in this hell to begin with? Seems pointless. Enough suffering already, time to course correct.
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  TonusOH

  Perhaps a more interesting discussion would be to ask what each person thinks the great tribulation will be like. Russell saw it as a period of anarchy, with conditions getting worse until such time as Jesus stepped in to establish the kingdom of God and destroy man-made governments. But what would that be like? 2019-2021 USA? Present day Venezuela? Russia? North Korea? Ukraine? Some other example? Something even worse?

  Either of the world wars would seem to have been an example of a great tribulation. People dying in large numbers, the economies of many nations being almost wiped out, humanity in such disarray that either disease or despots took advantage to introduce even more suffering. But we have kept on going. So the great tribulation would need to be even worse, since it would need to be cut short to save humanity from extinction. What else could happen that was worse than those times?
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  budbayview

  If you look back through history, there were many events that would certainly qualify as to what that tribulation would look like.

  For example, 5 million people die of smallpox in the Roman Empire, 25 million dead of bubonic plague in the Roman/Byzantine Empire. 100 million dead across Europe and Asia between 1338 to 1351 from the Black Death or bubonic plague and another 1.5 billion in the Americas dead from the combined diseases of smallpox, measles, and typhoid all before the 1900’s. Two years from 1918 to 1920 brought the Spanish flu pandemic, with mortality of 75 million across the globe. That is just a small example, there is much much more.

  Just in our times, if you have ever seen any footage of a depression era dust bowl storm rolling in complete with lighting, one would imagine that was it. Or imagine you are in Japan during the time we dropped the nuclear bombs, vaporizing thousands, and leaving more with severe burns and radiation poisoning. Sipping on our espressos at Starbucks, playing house, most Americans do not have a clue. We have been desensitized to death, we are immune and unsympathetic. As I wrote in my prior post, I am not a fan of eschatological writings.

  My point is this. Look at the personality of God and ask yourself do you really believe what was written down is locked in solid truth? Or maybe, we just do not know shite like we think we do.
  
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  peacefulpete

  Leolaia did a great research project on this and related topics. Talk a couple hours reading.

  The 144,000 and the Great Crowd of Revelation
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  Linda14

  ZaneM44

  I have often thought of that before, that we are already in the GT. Although I didn't arrive at mine using the method you used. When you consider how the Jews went through their tribulation, we see that it was connected to the Roman subjugation of Jerusalem. They would need to flee, these caused hardship, tribulation.

  It is possible that different war happening during this period that has brought untold hardship to many is part of the tribulation of our day. But we need not be dogmatic. We may be wrong.

  Some of the reason for someone's conclusion may be based on 1914, 144000, Babylon the great, who the beast is etc. This understanding may have unanswered questions. For example, how do we know for sure that 1914 mark the start of the last days? How are we sure that Babylon the great is religion, even if it is religion, that it is all religions? Only 144000 going to heaven cannot be stated with certainty. The Gov Body's understanding is further affected by their understanding of Gog of Magog and the time of its appearance.

  Even if we say that sufferings and wars are part of the GT, when can we start to count the exact time the GT began? Is it possible that in God's own eyes things have not become really bad to fit His own description of last days or GT? For example, are we sure that mark of the beast suffering is underway? Are we sure that Satan has been cast out of heaven yet?
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  peacefulpete

  John also sees a great crowd standing before the throne. (Re 7:9-10) He is asked if he knows who that great crowd is. He does not, so the angel tells him that these are the ones who survived that great tribulation. (Re 7:13-14)

  "came out of the tribulation". means they died during the tribulation and go to heaven. WT spin make no sense as the crowd are in heaven before the throne.
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  punkofnice

  FM - Naz&i.

  Naz and I? Who is Naz?

  Not referring to Alice Cooper's old band are we?
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  TonusOH

  He means "Y". As in, "not Z."
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  Vanderhoven7

  @Boogerman

  Fine!

  So what about Armageddon?