Quality of jw.org translation?

by Wonderment 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    How fast you learn a language varies dramatically based on ability and motivation. There are plenty of indications that Fred Franz had ability and was highly motivated. He was known to be a language geek. He knew German from childhood, he attended a Spanish congregation and gave talks in Spanish and other languages. He continued to study Greek while Watchtower editor at the headquarters from 1928 onwards as evidenced by references to scholarly works in the literature. That’s not to say he was at a level comparable with leading scholars. But was he good enough to complete translation of the NWT? It seems so, because he did complete the NWT. Scholars who reviewed the translation when it was published offered criticisms of its wooden English and alleged bias in certain passages, but didn’t question that the translator knew enough to complete the translation. For example he adopted some views about how Hebrew aspects should be translated that have not aged well. That might be viewed as a mistake based on adoption of ideas floating around at the time, but it is also evidence that he knew enough about the language to adopt such a position in the first place.

    It is ‘a’ translation mostly borrowed from extant English translations.

    Which translations did it borrow from? If that was the case it would be easy to prove, especially with modern plagiarism software and AI. Have you ever done this, or know of it being done with the NWT?

    Fred Franz’s style was pretty unique, some would say uniquely bad, but for better or worse I think his translation was clearly his own effort, completed in a serious manner involving a lot of hard work. It took him around 13 years to complete his translation of the entire Bible. The result is a Bible translation one might expect from someone who had some formal training in Greek, who had a lot of dedication and spent a lot of time on the task, and who worked outside the Trinitarian tradition that has influenced Bible translation since the 4th century. Trinitarians obviously hate it because it doesn’t follow the orthodox line, but that doesn’t mean Franz wasn’t competent in Bible languages. Non Trinitarian scholars such as Jason BeDuhn and Benjamin Kedar have complimented the NWT. Some Trinitarian scholars have acknowledged that the NWT is a competent translation even if they accuse it of bias.

  • Syme
    Syme

    This refers to the translation of their own material, not the Bible, for which AI will have a different opinion, I suspect, as the NWT is generally considered not good translation.

    No one ever accused the Org of not having a big enough translation team or being lazy with translation.

    As regards to translation of jw website and magazines, when the source material is garbage, the meticulous translation will be meticulous translation of garbage, not a big deal.

    The problem with NWT is not the laziness of the translators, but the dishonesty which led to deliberate changes in the text to fit the JW sectarian dogma. Which, if one believes that the Bible is the word of God, is not just dishonest but Satanic, really.

    As for Fred Franz, he is vastly over-respected as a Biblical 'scholar', even among former jws. It is actually funny to even compare him to actual scholars from the 2,000 year old Christian history.

  • Touchofgrey
    Touchofgrey

    In the 1954 court case in Scotland regarding Douglas Walsh and jws being exempt from military service. Was fred Franz asked to translate a single bible verse and couldn't.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    It wouldn't be far wrong as trinitarian translators themselves have translated it similarly... Moffatt and Goodspeed for one, What about Origen on John 1:1? (koine Greek was his mother tongue, he would know)
    (I don't care if these people are universally considered Christians, the answer is related to scholarly/ translation methods, not beliefs)


    Touchofgrey
    Franz was put in a situation where the question had nothing to do with his translating skills in the first place, not to mention it would not tell us his skills in Hebrew because most who attempt it would get different results for starters and how does his competency in Hebrew account for such in Greek?
    simple, it doesnt My skills in Greek have nothing to do with my native tongue or my Hebrew or Dutch

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    First: careful, it is good to know that you are still around, and able to submit your valuable comments.

    PetrW: I don't want to draw conclusions from two passages, but doesn't this suggest a declining quality of translation and proofreading work...?

    Not necessarily. We all know by now that the WT has shifted their translation practice towards greater simplification. Although I don´t have any WT literature before me giving out specifics on translation practices, I dare mention some observations.

    For years, I noticed the WT publications contained the same number of pages in the many languages I looked up. Now, I find this interesting because some languages display more verbosity than English does, say, Portuguese, Spanish and French, to name a few. This means, that the WT translator teams faced the challenge of squeezing the extra phrasing necessary to convey the original English message into these other languages within the same space. In part, the publishing arm of the WT would handle this automatically. As a result, the font size was made smaller in some cases. But I suspect that the WT translators also had the instruction to keep the translated text as short as possible as well, an observation I noted in various WT publications. Interestingly, a WT translator at Bethel mentioned this once.

    This process would affect the translation product to some extent. It does not mean the translation teams did not know any better in their assignments. They had to work with some suggested limitations from the start. The same could be said perhaps of other non-WT publications when translated into other languages. In fact, I have noticed the same thing in Bible versions, be it, English, or other. With some effort, anyone can see which Bible versions in English kept the translation product as brief as possible, while others did not. (One ex., John 11.35, Jesus wept vs Jesus burst into tears. - KJV vs Moffatt)

    Besides the verbosity challenge facing translators, there is the issue of language rightness in different countries. In Spanish for example, a language spoken in many different countries, a good word in Spain may be a bad word in Mexico, and viceversa. The WT used dozens of proofreaders from different countries (somewhere between 80 and 90 if I recall correctly) in preparing this edition.

    Then you have the doctrinal interpretation issues in some areas of the world. In some cases, the WT has explained how they have had to adapt the wording in some texts to clear various traditional misunderstandings in the various countries they are present. Is this why they have translation teams scattered around the world, that is, to improve the translation process and message communication? If so, consistency will take a back seat at times.

    Acknowledging, translation can be done with a literal, contemporary, or paraphrase mission. The WT left the literal-meaning translation behind for the most part, with the exception of the English NWT (even in its updated form), which still bears quite a bit of literalness. Other NWT versions from the English obviously had less restrictions in the translation process. Translation is not always rigid, and it is the translatorś duty to determine when to stick to a literal reading, and when not to. Of course, there is always a risk of deviating from the original document when dismissing a literal reading. But even in the most literal versions, translators in some situations had no choice but to take a guess as to what the original writer meant when he wrote something.

    In the case of Acts 2.46, the Greek structure, although not uncommon, is a bit complicated for readers of other cultures. Furthermore, to translate this text correctly, one must undertake various exegetical problems at hand. From the modern standpoint, is the bread referred to here the type of unleavened bread used in the commemoration of Jesus' death, or is it a term related to a common meal during the first century?

    Should the translator render the Greek phrase katʼ oiʹkon (from house to house) literally? Should this expression be understood in the sense that the believers in this context were doing the action at their homes (adverbial), or in the consecutive sense (physically, in walking distance, from house to house), or in the distributive sense, that is, from one house to another, distance apart, not physically together?

    The NWT translators took the Greek phrase in the distributive sense: in different homes, that is, the believers met and shared meals together at different homes of fellow believers.

    At Rev 5:14, it should be noted that some Greek texts do add: living to the ages of the ages, with no suffix, or pronoun. Jay P. Green has: (the) Living One living to the ages of the ages. The George Ricker Berry and the Newberry Interlinear read: and worshipped [him who] lives to the ages of the ages. (Brackets theirs)

    Even in English, some translators (KJV, Young, Lamsa, Mace, Thomson, and others) add the vague him to end of the text which is missing in the Greek text.

    It would be interesting to determine what the Czech, Slovak and Slovenian NWT translators had in mind by adding God to the text. I wonder if any Czech, Slovak and Slovenian version or popular commentary there include Jesus in the worship (Both God and the Lamb are mentioned in the chapter). Anyways, these are some of the things that translators encounter in their business, and readers frequently lack these details to form an accurate conclusion.

    If done correctly, an accurate translation need not be literal everywhere. A somewhat loose translation in some scriptures can communicate better with a lot of people. Regardless, all translators must submit to a realm of uncertainty in numerous places. We the readers gain from all the sound labor these translators accomplish.
  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Wonderment

    In the case of Acts 2.46, the Greek structure, although not uncommon, is a bit complicated for readers of other cultures. Furthermore, to translate this text correctly, one must undertake various exegetical problems at hand. From the modern standpoint, is the bread referred to here the type of unleavened bread used in the commemoration of Jesus' death, or is it a term related to a common meal during the first century?

    Should the translator render the Greek phrase katʼ oiʹkon (from house to house) literally? Should this expression be understood in the sense that the believers in this context were doing the action at their homes (adverbial), or in the consecutive sense (physically, in walking distance, from house to house), or in the distributive sense, that is, from one house to another, distance apart, not physically together?

    ---

    On Acts 2:46 - they broke bread in houses: there is a 1613 Czech Evangelical translation (Bible of Kralice) that was historically and culturally as important in shaping the language as the 1611 KJV was in shaping English. They had no problem translating the phrase "they broke bread in houses" back in 1613, and it's been going on for 400 years - in the meantime, there were Catholic translations as well, and in the 20th century alone, there are about 5 other translations of the NT in Czech that translate this passage without a problem. The exception is the NWT. Even the Jerusalem Bible, which has a similar history of origin (translation from the original languages into French and subsequent translation into the vernacular languages or translation of footnotes only) and exists in the Czech version, translates this passage completely and intelligibly without problem: they broke bread house by house.

    Specifically, in the text of Acts 2:46, both translators of the English NWT and translators from the NWT into other languages are completely and utterly without apology. The problem is in turn compounded by the fact that in the JWs-interlinear translation, this passage is literally translated. But also this thing has a problem: there is a WT study(!) article (September 2017) that questions the benefits of studying biblical languages and refers to an infamous text, again from the WT, from November 2009, where the study of biblical languages by rank-and-file members is negativized to the point of creating some danger ("superficial knowledge"). All those (in the 2009 WT text) reasons against studying are exactly the reasons to remove them by studying...

    In the passage Acts 2:46, "bread" (αρτος) and its breaking is mentioned, followed by the general term "food" (τροφη). This last phrase ("they took food"), Luke, as the writer of Acts, also uses in connection with Paul and the time just before the shipwreck, when he urges the passers-by to "eat food" (Acts 27:33). As noted below, it is even "liturgical" bread that is eaten by various people quite freely, without any restraint or restriction, both by Paul and by the other Christians on the ship.

    The "breaking of the bread" in Acts 2:46 obviously refers in its wording to Jesus and his miraculous feeding of the multitudes (Matt 14:19), but especially to the situation at the Last Supper (Luke 22:19), which becomes early Christian liturgy - see 1 Cor 10:16 and 24.

    JWs have an almost - I would say - paranoid fear of the "breaking of bread" as a particular liturgical element within the general community of early Christian believers, but also of non-Christians(!!!), becoming a pattern. Therefore, in the passages Acts 20:7 and 11, the phrase "breaking bread" (Paul), again translated as "food". But they have not been consistent, nor is that possible, so they finally let Paul (cf. above - the event before the shipwreck) "break bread" Acts 27:35 and even give it to others(!) - v.36.

    If they can translate the phrase "take the bread...and break it" in Acts 27:35 with no problem, all the other passages where they don't do it, they do it with intent. There is no other explanation.

    Conclusion: the reader of the Bible should be the sole judge of whether such and such a text is important to him or not. No matter how difficult a text it is to translate. If - instead of the reader - translators "censor" the text to suit their own ideas, then they are making a grave error. Sooner or later the trust and legitimacy of such 'translators' will be lost. The same psychological and sociological mechanisms will come into play for the addressees (the audience) as in the case of censorship, misinformation or half-truths in politics...

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    Thanks for your illuminating comment.

    It appears there is no consensus in whether all Bible translations should stick to a literal phrase like, break the bread in every text where it appears. I agree that by not using a consistent rendering some readers may end up misled as to the original intent of the Bible writer. Interpretive mistakes are perhaps more common with contemporary translations. I am satisfied that you are satisfied with the literal expression break the bread as it appears consistently in older versions.

    At the same time, the trend in the last 50 years has been to replace many literal phrases in the Bible with contemporary wording that modern speakers can better understand. I believe there is a place for both translation principles.

    I wonder what is your view on the following:

    Acts 20:7 [NWT Study Edition]

    • to have a meal: Lit., “to break bread.” Bread was the staple of the diet in the ancient Middle East; hence, this expression came to denote any kind of meal. Bread was generally formed into flat loaves that were baked hard, so the bread was often broken rather than cut with a knife. Therefore, breaking the loaves to eat them was customary and something that Jesus often did. (See study note on Mt 14:19; see also Mt 15:36; Lu 24:30.) When Jesus instituted the Lord’s Evening Meal, he took a loaf and broke it. Since this was the normal way to divide a loaf, there is no spiritual significance to Jesus’ breaking the bread. (See study note on Mt 26:26.) Some claim that when this expression occurs in certain places in the book of Acts, it refers to the observance of the Lord’s Evening Meal. (Ac 2:42, 46; 20:7, 11) Every time the Lord’s Evening Meal is mentioned, though, breaking bread is associated with drinking wine from a cup. (Mt 26:26-28; Mr 14:22-25; Lu 22:19, 20; 1Co 10:16-21; 11:23-26) The two actions are equally significant. So when breaking bread is mentioned without any reference to drinking from a cup, this is a reference, not to the Lord’s Evening Meal, but to an ordinary meal. Moreover, there is nothing to indicate that Jesus intended the Memorial of his death to be observed more often than the festival it replaced, the Passover, which was observed just once a year.

      -----------------------------------------------

      https://www.simplybible.com/f47a-notes-breaking-of-bread-a-distinction.htm

      https://www.peterdehaan.com/christianity/breaking-bread/

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Wonderment

    The thing about the revised translation of the NWT (Czech version 2019) in the case of Acts 2:46 is that it does not have the literal "house from house" in relation to the previous edition of 1999, which is now (2019) replaced by "they visited". The NWT translation (Czech version) of 1999 and the revised edition of 2019 never had the term "bread". In contrast, other 20th century Czech translations or even translations from translations (as far back as Latin or modern languages) translate this verse without a problem.

    As you yourself indicate with a quotation from JWs-literature, the JWs sought to suppress any mention that the "breaking of bread" could - seemingly/actually - be considered a liturgy of the early Christians, which is fundamentally different from the JWs' practice. As one theological dictionary argues: the church in the time of the apostles, meant a "theological" rather than an organizational unit.

    What bothers me is the "censorious" intervention of the JWs in the translation of the NT, where they first suppress any mention of "bread", only to then also delete the mention that they did it "house by house". Of course they can do that - I'm not forbidding them, but that's why I'm no longer a JW! 😊

    As someone here wryly pointed out, we can expect the concept to be expanded in future revisions: Jehovah and his organization. Rather, I also expect the revised NWT translation to shorten, for example, just the text of the book of Acts to simply: "They obeyed the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses and what Jehovah communicated to them through the organization. And they did not doubt."

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit