Jesus, the Great Convincer?

by Simon 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Viviane

  And surely therein lies the rub. If it truly were propaganda why on earth would they have included these details?

  I think you mean central points to the story? Also, do you not know how propaganda works?
  
  
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  Wild_Thing

  I think that at one time there was probably a person named Jesus that did exist, and had a cult following for his new hippy-like ideals. I think this story was retold and embellished so many times that by the time it got to written paper, he could walk on water and raise the dead! Jesus is just a tall tale that people have taken a little too seriously.

  My theory is just as valid as the traditional one.
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  Simon

  someone had to fulfill a prophecy / why is Judas hated so much? / he is a *vital* part of the story

  That leads in to the question then of free-will and choice. If he hadn't betrayed him and chosen not to, would someone else have suddenly felt compelled to do it? So what choice did he really have? What choice would any of them have? What if no one had decided to betray him? Was someone destined to be made into the fall guy by some cosmic hand of god? Hardly seems fair ...

  Like most things biblical, it only works on a very shallow level. If you think about most stories and explore the detail they quickly fall apart and make no sense and other stories are pulled in to shore them up but also introduce more contradictions.
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  Simon

  It reminds me a little of how Elders are supposedly appointed by Holy Spirit but turn out to be abusive and dishonest.

  Think about Jesus picking his disciples. Was Judas pre-ordained to conduct the betrayal at that point? Was he manipulated into the betrayal? Why pick him if it was known ... was it honest to pick someone to put them in that position if, without being picked, they would not have the opportunity?

  If you have foreknowledge, how can it be anything other than a divine form of entrapment?
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  LoveUniHateExams

  Just playing devil's advocate here:

  JWs and other Christians would say that doubt and betrayal among some of the apostles is evidence for the gospel being genuine, i.e. if all Jesus' followers perfectly believed and were all faithful it would be 'too good to be true'.

  Was Judas pre-ordained to conduct the betrayal at that point? - probably not. The prophecy is that one of the disciples would betray Jesus. Which one is never specified. The belief is that each disciple had freedom of choice.

  Not my opinions but the opinions of many Christians, no doubt ...
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  Xanthippe

  devil's advocate here:
  JWs and other Christians would say that doubt and betrayal among some of the apostles is evidence for the gospel being genuine, i.e. if all Jesus' followers perfectly believed and were all faithful it would be 'too good to be true'. LUHE

  All the best fiction contains villains, anti-heroes and flawed humans.
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  Finkelstein

  The main part of organized religion is to take fictional mythology to support and sustain it as if it were nonfiction.

  Its a amazing how a small handful of lies can effectuate people's emotions and their social consciousness, the Jesus story was told 2000 years ago, the Allah and Muhammad story was told 1400 years ago.
  
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  flamegrilled

  I think you mean central points to the story? Also, do you not know how propaganda works?

  
  

  Yes, I'm very familiar with how propaganda works, which is precisely my point. Propaganda filters out the negative detail in order to maximize the message in favor of the cause. If you were creating propaganda then you'd be unlikely to write the narrative as it's presented in the gospels. The very fact that Simon in the OP can point out the negative aspects is actually unwitting testimony to the honesty of the accounts.

  For sure, it's no proof that these things happened, but it certainly adds weight to the idea that the authors believed in the things that they wrote and they weren't just going all out for telling a story that would best represent their cause.
  
  
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  Viviane

  The prophecy is that one of the disciples would betray Jesus. Which one is never specified. The belief is that each disciple had freedom of choice.

  Uh, which prophecy?
  

  Yes, I'm very familiar with how propaganda works, which is precisely my point. Propaganda filters out the negative detail in order to maximize the message in favor of the cause

  Oh, then I guess you've must have heard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Tell me, which negative details it filters out? Tell me, since you clearly have looked at all of the propaganda in the world to be able to make that declarative statement about all propaganda in the world, which have you read and studied?
  
  Once again, these aren't negative details, they are central points to the story. Which propaganda in your studies treats major plot points as details?

  If you were creating propaganda then you'd be unlikely to write the narrative as it's presented in the gospels.

  Why? Please show comparative and contrast propaganda throughout history that you have studied in order to be able to demonstrate this.
  

  The very fact that Simon in the OP can point out the negative aspects is actually unwitting testimony to the honesty of the accounts.

  That doesn't make sense and is a non-sequitur. Just because I can point out the flaws in something doesn't mean it isn't what it is. For instance, just because I can point that a person has flaws doesn't make them not a person.

  Similarly, just because the gospels are shitty propaganda doesn't make them not propaganda.
  
  

  For sure, it's no proof that these things happened, but it certainly adds weight to the idea that the authors believed in the things that they wrote and they weren't just going all out for telling a story that would best represent their cause.

  Well, "it's" not anything, much less proof, at the moment as you've not presented anything except your opinion, a non-sequitur. Also, you seem to be confused. Are you saying people that write propaganda, by definition, don't believe it? Otherwise, what's to stop them from writing propaganda stories and believing them?
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  Xanthippe

  The prophecy is that one of the disciples would betray Jesus. Which one is never specified. The belief is that each disciple had freedom of choice.

  Uh, which prophecy?

  This prophecy -

  'He who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me shall betray me' - Matt 26:23

  Viviane were you ever a member of the JW religion or just the college debating society?