Is it still Watchtower dogma that the seven trumpets of Revelation refer to seven conventions in the 1920s? Would many JWs these days even be aware of this? I find it so amusing that seven little conventions in the distant past, almost a century ago, could be equated with such an iconic biblical passage. The idea that Christians waited almost two millennia to find out that the great trumpet blasts of Revelation were a set of largely unnoticed gatherings borders on crazy. These conventions supposedly put the world on notice, but the world yawned. Is this still what JWs believe, or has this particular doctrine been quietly retired?
The Seven Trumpets
by Jehovah lol 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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stuckinarut2
Great thread.
Well, I guess that since the revelation climax book is now "outdated old light", and I don't know of any replacement book, it's anyone's guess as to what the "official" teachings are now.
Yes, it's downright stupid to think that some inane "resolution or proclamation" made at some 20th century cult convention was the fulfilment of the ancient writings of a crazy mental patient named John on some isolated island....
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redpilltwice
Jehovah lol you triggered me (lol again)...
Revelation has always been my favorite book, both biblical and the WT's red "Climax" book. Stuckinarut2 already mentioned the old light theme. Oh how I was pissed off when the notorious type/antitype WT study came. The GB/writing comite had turned that book into one big ANTI-climax, just like that! It surely was one of my WTF? moments that led to learning TTATT.
Of course the WT will never apologise for failed light and unreliabilty regarding the "guidance" by holy spirit. Their focus is much more on loyalty and they will count on it that those teachings will be forgotten and eventually will disappear into oblivion. Of course Google Almighty will help more and more to wake up, but with the current mental condition of the lame, brainwashed flock and the strong effects of FOG, the WT's blind eye for its own false teachings and fallacies might even work for the time being... most will not care.
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dozy
Even when I was an active JW , this particular teaching did seem a bit far fetched. The trumpet blasts aren't even in chronological order ( the 5th & 6th were in 1919 , the 7th was in 1914 , albeit with "woes" supposedly emphasised at later conventions in the 20's). Like ( for example ) the Society interpretations of the succession of the kings of the north & south in Daniel , it just seemed to me to be someone just playing around clumsily trying to get events to fit into rather vague and confusing "prophecies".
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tiki
Haha...and don't forget the guys who got out of jail....dry bones fleshed up and came to life. You gotta admit that one was a real winner.....
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Vanderhoven7
I am engaged with a JW (Mr. Pennyone) on the issue of interpretation. Here one of my last posts to him
<<Bible Interpretation—By Whose Influence? ONE definition of the word “interpret” is “to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance.”What, though, about Bible interpretation? Are we free to explain Bible passages according to our own “belief, judgment, or circumstance”?
Exactly what the leaders of the WTS do! Don't your leaders say they alone can interpret scripture properly...yet they change their beliefs again and again. Just look at your speculations about Matthew 24 regarding "the faithful and wise servant" parable...and on the "generation that will not pass away".
Naturally, most Bible scholars and translators claim that they do not do so but that they are guided by God.
Isn't that exactly what "spirit directed" means?
<<Can you give me some examples?>>
Certainly: Clear examples of eisegesis are found throughout the Watchtower literature.
Consider Revelation 8:1-2; 6-7 Mr. Penny
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.....6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
What does this mean?
In your 1988 commentary on Revelation, entitled, “Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand” we discover amazing insider information concerning the timing of the seven trumpet blasts outlined in Revelation.
“When the sounding of the seven trumpets got under way in 1922, the Bible Student convention at Cedar Point, Ohio, (Rev.8:7) featured a talk by the president of the Watchtower Society, J. F Rutherford, based on the scripture, ”The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand. p. 172
On the very next page of the same commentary, we get the highlights of when and where all seven trumpets of Revelation began sounding.
“1. 1922 Cedar Point, Ohio: A challenge to Christendom's leaders in religion, politics, and big business to justify their failure to bring peace, prosperity, and happiness. Messiah's Kingdom is the panacea.
2. 1923 Los Angeles, California: The public talk, "All Nations Now Marching to Armageddon, but Millions Now Living Will Never Die," called on peace-loving "sheep" to abandon the death-dealing sea of humanity.
3. 1924 Columbus, Ohio: Ecclesiastics indicted for self-exaltation and refusal to preach Messiah's Kingdom. True Christians must preach God's vengeance and comfort mourning humanity.
4. 1925 Indianapolis, Indiana: A message of hope contrasting the spiritual darkness in Christendom with the bright Kingdom promise of peace, prosperity, health, life, liberty, and eternal happiness.
5. 1926 London, England: A locust-like plaguing of Christendom and its clergy, exposing their rejection of God's Kingdom, and hailing the birth of that heavenly government.
6. 1927 Toronto, Canada: An invitation, carried as by armies of cavalry, calling on people to forsake `organized Christianity' and give heart allegiance to Jehovah God and to his King and Kingdom.
7. 1928 Detroit, Michigan: A declaration against Satan and for Jehovah, making plain that God's anointed King, enthroned in 1914, will destroy Satan's evil organization and emancipate mankind.”As are all unique doctrines of the WTS Mr. Penny, the seven trumpets interpretation, is clearly determined by reading extra-biblical information (i.e. names, dates, places), into the text. Adding to the word of God is nothing less than interpretive abuse.
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Vanderhoven7
His cut and paste response to me followed:
Vanderhoven said...
As are all unique doctrines of the WTS Mr. Penny, the seven trumpets interpretation, is clearly determined by reading extra-biblical information (i.e. names, dates, places), into the text. Adding to the word of God is nothing less than interpretive abuse."Interpreting the Scriptures
The mysteries locked up in the book of Revelation have for long baffled sincere students of the Bible. In God’s due time, those secrets had to be unlocked, but how, when, and to whom? Only God’s spirit could make known the meaning as the appointed time drew near. (Revelation 1:3) Those sacred secrets would be revealed to God’s zealous slaves on earth so that they would be strengthened to make known his judgments. (Matthew 13:10, 11)
It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: “Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety, showing how remarkably divine prophecy has been fulfilled in the world events of our catastrophic times. --- p.9"
Also consider this:Some 3,700 years ago, two men were locked away in a prison in Egypt. Each received an intriguing dream. Having no access to the wise men of the land, they expressed their perplexity to a fellow inmate, Joseph, exclaiming: “We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter with us.” That servant of God encouraged them to relate their dreams to him, saying: “Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8) Only Jehovah God has the ability to unravel prophecies, just as an experienced sailor can untie complicated knots. After all, it was God who made or tied up those prophecies in the first place. Logically, we must look to him for the loosening of their meaning. Yes, Joseph was right in giving the credit to God.In what sense, then, do “interpretations belong to God”? There are a number of ways that this proves to be the case. Some Bible prophecies are recorded along with their fulfillment. These, then, are relatively simple to untie, as are some knots that the sailor freely explains how to undo.—Genesis 18:14; 21:2. Other prophecies can be explained and unraveled by an examination of the context. The prophet Daniel had a prophetic vision of ‘a ram with two horns’ being decisively struck down by a “hairy he-goat” that had “a conspicuous horn between its eyes.” The context shows that the ram with the two horns represented “the kings of Media and Persia” and the goat, “the king of Greece.” (Daniel 8:3-8, 20-22) More than 200 years later, “the great horn”—Alexander the Great—began his conquest of Persia. The Jewish historian Josephus claimed that during Alexander’s military campaign in the vicinity of Jerusalem, he was shown this very prophecy and believed that it referred to him. “Interpretations belong to God” in another sense. Guided by holy spirit, Joseph, a faithful servant of Jehovah God, was able to understand the meaning of the perplexing dreams his fellow prisoners related to him. (Genesis 41:38) When present-day servants of God are unsure of the meaning of a certain prophecy, they pray for God’s spirit and then diligently study and search the spirit-inspired Word of God. With God’s guidance they can locate scriptures that open up the meaning of some prophecies. The interpretation does not come miraculously through any humans. It comes from God because it is by means of his spirit and his Word that the meaning becomes clear. The interpretation is not introduced from outside the Bible by human forecasters.—Acts 15:12-21.
“Interpretations belong to God” also in that he determines and directs when a prophecy is to be understood by his faithful servants on earth. The meaning of a prophecy can be discerned before, during, or after its fulfillment. Since God tied up the prophecies, he will unravel them at the right time—his time. In the account of Joseph and the two prisoners, he interpreted the dreams three days before they were fulfilled. (Genesis 40:13, 19) Later, when Joseph was brought before mighty Pharaoh to explain Pharaoh’s dreams, seven years of plenty were about to start. With God’s spirit, Joseph unraveled the meaning of Pharaoh’s dreams, so that arrangements could be made to take in the foretold bumper crops.—Genesis 41:29, 39, 40.Other prophecies are fully understood by servants of God only after their fulfillment. Many events in Jesus’ life had been prophesied centuries before his birth, but this was not fully understood by his disciples until after his resurrection. (Psalm 22:18; 34:20; John 19:24, 36) Finally, according to Daniel 12:4, certain prophecies were to be ‘sealed up’ “until the time of the end,” when, Daniel said, “the true knowledge will become abundant.” We are living in the very time when those prophecies are in the course of fulfillment. -- Watchtower 12/1/11 p.12. -
nowwhat?
Being one to ask questions, I once asked how did the rest of the world note what was said in front of 10,000 people at these conventions? "Oh I'm sure all the major newspapers covered it" was the answer. Okaay. . if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it does it make any noise?
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Vanderhoven7
His response summarized essentially means:
We were appointed so we can do whatever we want to the scriptures and its A-OK.
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Jehovah lol
Arguing with a JW about that kind of stuff is like talking to a parrot.