Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto 154 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  scholar

  johnamos

  Regarding Jer. 29:10 there are other translations that agree with the NWT's rendering of this passage such as the King James Version , Latin Vulgate and the Greek Septuagint LXX. In the reply to Lonsto from the Society it stated that "However, use of the word 'at' or 'in' does not change the number of years given, nor the fact that Babylon took Israelites captive" Further, all that is meant by the use of the preposition 'for' is that the Jewish Exiles were under Babylon's domination or in servitude to Babylon which is what I stated in my initial post.

  Yes, WTS and scholar agree that the 70 years are for Babylon namely in SERVITUDE to Babylon in addition also to being a period of EXILE in Babylon whilst the Land of Judah was DESOLATE in combination for 70 years.

  The 70 years for Tyre only represent a period of Babylon's domination also we do not know the chronology for the domination of Tyre domination and is not identical with the 70 years of Jeremiah.

  Q: When did Jehovah say he would call Babylon to account?

  Jer. 25:12 which you only quoted in part states that it was only after the 70 years have been fulfilled. Thus it could not have been in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon because Daniel the Prophet who was in Babylon at that time wrote in the 1st year of Darius the Mede who took the kingship of Babylon after its Fall in 539BCE that he then discerned the continuation of the 70 years This fact alone proves that at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE that the 70 years had not then expired.

  Q: What year did Jehovah call Babylon to account? The Bible does not say because nowhere does it state any specific year so that rules out 539 BCE but rather Jer.25:12 describes it rather as a period of judgement over time such as the punishment would be for the king, the nation and the land of the Chaldeans. All of these things occurred after 539 BCE further Jeremiah in the nest verse shows that the land would become desolate and that did not happen in 539 BCE.

  The evidence indicates that the 70 years was a period of time of Babylon's domination over Judah with the Jews being deported to Babylon as Exiles leaving the land of Judah totally desolate from 607 BCE with the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return of the Exiles in 537 BCE.

  scholar
• 

  scholar

  Finkelstein

  The celebrated WT scholars are not happy with your comments and neither is the said scholar!!!!!

  scholar
• 

  Finkelstein

  Finkelstein

  The celebrated WT scholars are not happy with your

  comments and neither is the said scholar!!!!!

  scholar

  That's understandable and not surprising since I exposed your false chronological dating which the said WTS theologians (novices) propagated.

  The evidence indicates that the 70 years was a period

  of time of Babylon's domination over Judah with the Jews

  being deported to Babylon as Exiles leaving the land of

  Judah totally desolate from 607 BCE with the Fall of

  Jerusalem until the Return of the Exiles in 537 BCE.

  The numerous archeological findings and the bible support Babylon via Nebuchadnezzar may have had dominance over Jerusalem for close to 70 years but the WTS position and yours that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 is absurd given the amount of evidence to date which further confirms 586 being the correct year.

  Thereby the actual length of time of the desolation of Jerusalem and surrounding area was only approximately 49 years .... 586 - 537 = 49 years
  

  Oh well Scholar you'll just have continue on being identified as a sinning apostate false prophet in the eyes of god until you accept " The Truth ", at least you can consciously be aware that you have been " Witnessed " to.
  
• 

  johnamos

  scholar

  Quote - The evidence indicates that the 70 years was a period of time of Babylon's domination over Judah with the Jews being deported to Babylon - End quote

  LOL!!! Absolutely not.

  [Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]

  Verse 11 says 'THESE NATIONS', that means all the nations at that time would have to serve Babylon those 70 years. And the fact that Jehovah said that when those 70 years had been fulfilled that he would then call Babylon to account proves that 539 must have been the 70th year being that that is the time that Babylon was brought to its end as the 3rd world empire. Add 70 to 539 and you get 609. What happen in 609? Babylon defeated Assyria which was then the ruling 2nd world empire. That means that Babylon was the ruling 3rd world empire for 70 years, from 609 to 539, which is what the WTS and secular chronology state.

  [10-1-11 WT – Instead of saying 70 years “at Babylon,” many translations read “for Babylon.” (NIV) Some historians therefore claim that this 70-year period applies to the Babylonian Empire.]

  [10-1-11 WT - According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured.]

  [Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 – …the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination…But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]

  
  

  Quote- The 70 years for Tyre only represent a period of Babylon's domination also we do not know the chronology for the domination of Tyre domination and is not identical with the 70 years of Jeremiah. - End quote

  Yes Tyre is with the same 70 years of Jeremiah. Verse 11 of ch. 25 says 'THESE NATIONS' but reading down further you read the NATION mentioned by name and verse 22 mentions Tyre.

  All the NATIONS started serving Babylon from the point that Babylon became the 3rd world power which was in 609 and the NATIONS stop serving Babylon when that empire ended which was in 539.That matches exactly with what Jehovah said, that the NATONS would serve Babylon 70 years and that is also what the WTS said when saying: "Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination"
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Johnamos

  Now that makes sense. Thank you!
• 

  johnamos

  Additionally read Jeremiah 27:6-14 in regards to why I said:

  "All the NATIONS started serving Babylon from the point that Babylon became the 3rd world power which was in 609 and the NATIONS stop serving Babylon when that empire ended which was in 539."
  

  
  
• 

  scholar

  johnamos

  Indeed Jer.25:11 states that 'all these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years' which included Judah whereupon we have definite historical and biblical facts to show how that proved true chronologically. The Bible simply does not provide the historical details for those other nations even as in the case of Tyre as foretold earlier by Isaiah. In the case of Judah as outlined in the previous pericope as proved by 'this land and its inhabitants',;vs.11'And all this land' there are definitive historical markers which define the 70 period of Babylonish domination from the Fall in 607 until the Return in 537 BCE. In short, these nations all would fall under the 'umbrella 'of Babylonian domination of 70 years.

  It is impossible for the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE to be the event that ended the 70 years because both Daniel and Ezra stated that it was not until the reign of Cyrus had begun and that it was only in the 1st year of Darius that the 70 year period had not then been completed.

  Further, the choice of 609BCE for the Fall of Assyria to begin the seventy years fails also because the principal features of Jeremiah's seventy years are not applicable. Such features as described by Jeremiah are 1. The land would become desolate 2. The Jewish people would be exiled to Babylon and 3. That Judah would have to serve Babylon. The date 609 BCE's only claim to fame is the arithmetic in that if you subtract 7o years you arrive at 539 BCE which is meaningless. Nothing of historical significance occurred in 609 BCE and that is why COJ considered 605 BCE as a more meaningful candidate for the beginning of the 70 years.

  I recognize the fact that most Bible translations render 'for' rather than at' in Jer. 29:10 but it really makes no difference to the history, chronology or theology of the Period under discussion.

  Yes, Tyre was one of the nations listed by Jeremiah that would come under judgement but its specifics are unknown as with all other nations listed with the exception of Judah singled out for special attention by Jehovah God.

  We cannot say with certainty how Jeremiah's oracles against the other nations applied historically and chronologically except in the case of Judah. However, all of the nations thus specified by Jeremiah fell within the 70 year period of Babylonian domination. In the case of Judah it was foretold and confirmed that a period of 70 years from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE was a period of Servitude to/for Babylon, and Exile in Babylon leaving a totally Desolated Land of Judah'

  QED

  scholar
• 

  scholar

  Finkelstein

  It is correct to say that Judah came under Babylonian domination for a period of 70 years as foretold by Jeremiah, confirmed by Ezra and witnessed firsthand by Daniel. All of the historical, archaeological and biblical evidence validates 607 BCE as the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem. The date 586 or 587 BCE cannot account for the full period of 70 years so it is falsified on the basis of evidence because it comes up short this you have a BIG poblem(misspelling intentional).

  To argue that the period of desolation was 49 years is utter nonsense because the Bible states emphatically that this was to be a full period of 70 years and to say anything else simply amounts to revisionism and is dishonest.

  scholar
• 

  scholar

  johnamos

  Your last post refers back to Jeremiah 27:6-14 so What is your point?

  scholar
• 

  johnamos

  Did you read it? The point was/is that the nations serving Babylon is not based on them having do be destroyed or its residents having to be carted off to the location of Babylon. The nations serving was a result of recognizing that Babylon was the new world power and had authority over them. They became that 3rd world power with the battle in Haran when they overthrew once and for all Assyria (the then ruling 2nd world power)and that happen in 609.

  Tell me something in your own words...you can clearly read that the WTS states that:

  [Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]

  So tell me, since the 70 years mentioned in verse 11 and 12 is said to represent Babylon's greatest domination period and that period is said to have ended in 539, which logically means it started in 609, tell me, why does the WTS say that Jehovah called Babylon to account in 539 and Jehovah says that he would do so when 70 years have been fulfilled and yet you refuse to accept that the 70 years ended in 539?

  [Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]

  [8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]