Great thread!
Excellent comments from all-including those great WT article references.
I'm going to keep this content in my file for further discussions with my still-in brain dead family.
Need help understanding the Overlapping Generation teaching
by Jules Saturn 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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mann377
For those still confused:
The generation that was the generation is not the generation but was replaced by the new generation that is the generation for the generation that was foretold to be the generation.
How good it is the be in the spritual paradise and have such new truths revealed by Jehovah's faithful slave. We know this is from god because the FDS told us (they deliver the food at the proper time) and as we know they are anointed because they told us.
I told this to some new people at the RC this summer and they ran. Did not come back for the rest of the convention. Too bad. They missed all the rest of the spritual food. The RC are a fine time for witnessing.
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Finkelstein
Let it be clearly understood that the WTS has used Christ's return (1914) and the accompanying " This Generation " doctrine as a marketing commodity to promote and sell literature.
It was always a wrong theological Scriptural teaching even way back in the late 1800's because the bible says from Jesus's own words that his true followers should not set a time upon God's own sacred time.
That's the reason why most Christian based faiths have not tried or attempted to set a date or year from out their own inherent theology.
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deegee
Jules,
Jesus said in Matthew 24:32 – 34:
“Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is nigh; even so you also, when you see all these things, know you that he is nigh, even at the doors. Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place”
"All These things" referred to all of the events that Jesus had said would accompany the destruction of the temple. The problem is however, that not all of the things which Jesus said would accompany the destruction of the temple occurred in 70 CE.
ABOUT THE FULFILLMENT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION (GT):
In Matthew 24 (Mark 13, Luke 17 & 21) Jesus said that here would be great tribulation which has not occurred since the world’s beginning and which will never occur again.
There is general agreement among New Testament scholars that Jesus was telling his disciples of a great tribulation that would happen when Jerusalem was destroyed.
HOWEVER, most Christians maintain that the GT is yet to happen as Jesus said that there would be no event that could compare to the GT and it would occur only once.
ABOUT THE FULFILLMENT OF THE OTHER EVENTS:
In Matthew 24 (Mark 13, Luke 21) Jesus said that:
- Immediately after "the tribulation of those days" certain celestial signs would be seen: the sun would be darkened, the moon would not give its light, the stars would fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven would be shaken. There is general agreement among New Testament scholars that Jesus was telling his disciples of a great tribulation that would happen when Jerusalem was destroyed. Jesus was saying that these signs would come immediately after "those days" of the tribulation that accompanied the destruction of Jerusalem.
- After the appearance of the celestial signs, which would follow immediately after the tribulation of those days, "the sign of the Son of Man" would appear in heaven. All tribes of the earth would mourn, and they would see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. He would send his angels forth with a great sound of a trumpet, and they would gather together his elect from the four corners of the earth.
- All these things would take place before his generation had passed away.
Matthew 24 is not the only passage where Jesus promised that he would return before his own generation passed away. One of the clearest statements of this promise was made in Matthew 16:27-28:
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Jesus was describing the final judgment when he would come with his angels and reward every person according to his works. The New Testament teaches that the second coming of Jesus will signal the end of the world, at which time there will be a final, personal judgment on the basis of what each individual did in his/her lifetime:
- The apostle Paul said: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10).
- The book of Revelation closed with a warning of this final judgment: "Behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me, to render to each man according to his works" (Revelation 22:12).
- In his interpretation of the parable of the tares, Jesus was very clear in saying to his disciples that the final judgment would take place at the end of the world:
Matthew 13:37 – 43:
“He that sows the good seed is the Son of Man; and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that has ears, let him hear”
None of these things occurred when the temple was destroyed in 70 CE. These are just some of the things which did not occur. For a discussion of the events which did not occur when the temple was destroyed in 70 CE see:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070301122226/http://www.theskepticalreview.com:80/mainmenu.html
(See “Preterism: Phase 1 to Phase 3)
https://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl16a.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/symes05.htm
Christianity has taken different approaches to the events which were unfulfilled when the temple was destroyed in 70 CE:
- The destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70 by the Romans signalled Christ’s return, but in an invisible manner. The unfulfilled events were referring to symbolic fulfillments, which happened during the time of the generation that Jesus was speaking to. This is known as PRETERISM which has variations such as Partial-Preterism, Full-Preterism.
- Although Jesus’ words are presented as a continuous sequence of events, conservative Christians believe that the first part of the prophecy relates to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, whereas the remainder refers to Jesus' second coming in the future. The unfulfilled events are projected into the future. Jesus was addressing his statements to a remotely distant generation of people:
- JWs stipulated that this was the generation that saw 1914;
- Other Christians maintain that Jesus was talking about the generation that would be alive when the nation of Israel was restored in 1948.
This is known as DISPENSATIONALISM which has variations as well but essentially the Tribulation is believed to precede the second coming of Christ. The Tribulation is followed by 1000 years of peace when all live under the authority of Christ. Afterwards, in a brief, final battle, Satan is permanently conquered.
Both approaches attempt to explain away the obvious failure of Jesus’ promise to return during the lifetime of his generation. Refutations of PRETERISM can be found at the links provided above.
Consider also when the various books of the New Testament were written.
If I’m not mistaken, John’s Gospel was written 90 or 95 CE, his 3 letters were written between 96 and 98 CE years after Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 CE. If John had believed the event in 70 CE to be the fulfilment of Jesus’ prophecy about the end coming within his generation, wouldn’t he have stated that in his writings? But he did not. Wouldn’t it have been the best way to silence the doubters? But he didn’t even refer to it. To the contrary, the context of his letter shows he was still expecting Jesus’ prophecy to be fulfilled. 1 John 2:18:
“Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.”
Revelation was written in 95/96 CE after Jerusalem's destruction in 70CE and mentions that Jesus was still yet to come.
Matthew and Luke were written 80 or 85 CE. They record Jesus' prophecy about the world ending in his generation but there is no mention of a fulfillment in 70CE.
Couldn’t help the long post.
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Vanderhoven7
Yes Jesus is dealing with 2 separate events in Matthew 24; Jerusalem's destruction and the day of judgment at the end of time...which the disciples had conflated. JESUS straightened them out by separating the 2 judgments.
Before verse 35 including the great tribulation applied exclusively to Israel and Jerusalem. After verse 35 deals with world judgment.
Notice the distinctions before and after verse 35.
These days verses that day
Jerusalem Judea temple vs snare on whole world
Flee Jerusalem vs no running necessary
Know the time to flee...time impossible to gauge
Don't expect secret second presence to save Jerusalem because when the parousia occurs it will be clear round the word.
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punkofnice
Interesting thread.
Also interesting is the absence of the posters that normally post in favour of watchtower horese sh1t.
Come on jobos..........................explain this please!
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pale.emperor
I was still a JW when this came out, surprisingly, no one in the KH seemed to even notice that this is a major doctrinal change and they just went "meh..." and went along with it.
As i understand it, as a kid i was taught that the big A would definitely come before 2000 because it'll come before the anointed die, and they were all chose in 1914, and they wern't baptized as kids, they were grown up. And there's only a few left.
Then the unthinkable happened.... they all died.
Then the new teaching is that Jehovah was still anointing people during the lifetime of the 1914 group, so those who were anointed during the lifetime of the last of the 1914 group to die will still count towards the generation Jesus was talking about.
Now all they have to do is take out their bibles and show us where that's what Jesus evidently meant, and that his apostles understood that.
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deegee
Matthew 24 is not the only passage where Jesus promised that he would return before his own generation passed away.
One of the clearest statements of this promise was made in Matthew 16:27-28:
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Jesus was describing the final judgment when he would come with his angels and reward every person according to his works BEFORE the people who were standing there listening to him died.
This did not happen.
Preterism is just an attempt to explain away the obvious failure of Jesus’ promise to return during the lifetime of his generation:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070301122226/http://www.theskepticalreview.com:80/mainmenu.html
(See “Preterism: Phase 1 to Phase 3)https://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
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deegee
Preterism claims that Jesus returned in an invisible manner at the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE by the Romans.
The gospels do not say that Jesus will return invisibly, but that “all the peoples of the world.......will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory” (Matthew 24:30); "Every eye will see him even those who pierced him" (Revelation 1:7).
Nor could he have returned spiritually because it was promised during Christ’s bodily Ascension into heaven, that at his Second Coming “he will come the same way as you have seen him go”, that is, bodily on the clouds (Acts 1:11).
If Jesus came invisibly in 70CE and is to come again for the final judgement then Jesus would come THREE times and not TWO as the Bible claims.
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My Name is of No Consequence
How many generations do you see in this picture?
The world: 3
The dubs: 1
