God of the Old Testament

by unsure 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay
    Jews can be as diverse as anyone else, but I never understood why my friend would live kosher and eat kosher if he was an atheist. Yet he did. He said it was a cultural thing. What good is any religion if it doesn't address the afterlife or the judgment of man?

    Judaism is not a religion of belief or faith. It is one of action, where people cooperate with God to bring practical healing and help into the world.

    Technically speaking, Jews don't "believe" in God. None of us have this "belief." But that doesn't mean that Jews don't accept God as real.

    In Gentile religions it seems to be important to many of them that one have "faith" in a set of creeds or theological concepts. Jews don't (and many actually won't) do this. This type of "faith" is a mental assent that a certain concept or doctrine is true, something one has to guard from doubt. In the Jewish mind, real things don't require belief or faith.

    One does not "believe" in their existence on the planet earth or "guard their faith" in the existence of their family from doubt. Why not? These things are real. Our existence on earth and the existence of our family members is not affected by how much or how little belief we have in their existence. They exist, and no amount of belief or faith is necessary.

    God is no different for Jews. God is real. We are Jews only because we are in a covenant with God. Without God there would be no covenant, and without the covenant there would be no people known as the Jews. If I, a Jew, exist and my people exist, then no belief is necessary in any of this. All these elements are therefore real.

    But since God is not a deity in the sense "deity" is usually understood in non-Jewish religion, some Jews are atheist. On the flip side, not all Jews who will say "I don't believe in God" are atheist either. And not all Jews who will say they do believe in God will be Torah observant.

    This can be confusing to Gentiles because in their culture religion is about what one believes. In Jewish culture, religion is what one does. A person can claim they believe in a concept but have doubts or weak faith. A challenge may cause them to act contrary to their claimed convictions. Yet in Judaism, one's convictions can only be judged by one's actions. We don't "walk the talk." Instead Jew merely walk. The "talk" has no value as Judaism is about bringing practical, useful benefits into the world. A person's mere mental assent that some religious concept is real cannot guarantee this.

    We are not focused on an afterlife as we have the miracles of a present life. Every breath we have now is a gift. Every moment of life is a miracle. Every second is this life is a second experiencing God who Jews accept as real as the world they live in. We have no need for belief or faith as we are already with God now. Any future life is guaranteed by the covenant we keep. (And yes, the covenant relationship has not ended, just changed over the years.)

    Since Jews do not accept the Christian belief of the Fall of Man, there is no judgment of man necessary. God judged man at creation when God pronounced us "good." The narrative of Eden merely introduces the "wrestling" with God by which Jacob and we inherited the name "Israel."

    Jews do not see wrestling with God as a Fall, but as the sign that we are in a covenant. Partners in a covenant often wrestle with another. This "wrestling" occurs because both are working to bring healing into the world through Torah, a process we call "Tikkun Olam." We don't always see eye-to-eye on how best to do this like most partners in a legally binding contract, but when either side refuses to do it the way the other wants it isn't always a literal sin. Eventually one side gives in to the other, sometimes there is compromise. But a Fall of Man has never occurred. God wants partners in Tikkun Olam, not blind slaves.

    Our religion is our culture. You cannot ask us to leave one behind without leaving the other behind as they are one. Thus a Jew may not believe in God and keep kosher (technically speaking, I don't "believe" in God because things that are real don't require my faith, as they exist whether I acknowledge them or not). Our religion is not a belief system. Judaism is how we express who we are.

  • unsure
    unsure

    @Cold Steel

    Here are many examples

    http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=682

  • sir82
    sir82

    The Old Testament and New Testament are almost polar opposites.

    Oh I don't know - the Jesus found in the book of Revelation seems to enjoy riding his horse while swimming in infidels' blood - pretty "Old Testament" if you ask me.

    Paul seemed pretty happy to condemn gays, thieves, fornicators, etc. to the wrath of God.

    2 Peter seems to be filled with all sorts of planet-exploding terminology.

    I don't think it's quite as "polar opposite" as you think.

  • pale.emperor
    pale.emperor

    What particular way did God act that you find questionable or objectionable? Try to be specific because the Bible is full of stories.

    RAPING WOMEN AND MURDERING BABIES:

    Isaiah 13:16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated.

    Isaiah 13:18 ...they will have no mercy on infants, nor will they look with compassion on children.


    OWNING A SEX SLAVE, THEN SENDING HER OUTSIDE TO A MOB TO BE GANG-RAPED THEN, WHEN SHE'S STILL ALIVE, CHOP HER UP INTO PIECES.

    Judges 19:22-29 22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.”

    23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

    25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

    27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

    29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.


    MORE GANG RAPE, THIS TIME LOT OFFERS HIS DAUGHTERS... FORTUNATELY THE MEN WHERE HOMOSEXUAL OTHERWISE THEY'D HAVE BEEN RAPED TO DEATH.

    Genesis 19:6-8 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

    Shall i go on?

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    David_Jay » Judaism is not a religion of belief or faith. It is one of action, where people cooperate with God to bring practical healing and help into the world. Technically speaking, Jews don't "believe" in God. None of us have this "belief." But that doesn't mean that Jews don't accept God as real.

    So when Moses communes with YHWH on the mountain, and when he receives his commission from the voice from the burning bush, what was he dealing with, if anything? If YHWH is real, but not "God," what is He? Is He intelligence? Or is He the sum of stories created around countless fires on dark desert night?

    But in what sense is God real? If He is an intelligence and is not a GOD, what is He and why did He take an interest in the Jews?

    We are not focused on an afterlife as we have the miracles of a present life. Every breath we have now is a gift. Every moment of life is a miracle. Every second is this life is a second experiencing God who Jews accept as real as the world they live in. We have no need for belief or faith as we are already with God now.

    This is fine if you enjoy life and are living it fully. But not everyone views life as a blessing. Some view it as a curse. Some live every day in pain, others battle Alzheimers and see their minds slipping irretrievably away. To them, life is no miracle or blessing. Of what use is God if He doesn't speak? And what good is living the law if it leads nowhere but old age and death?

    In other words, many atheists would contend that YHWH is, and has never been, real in any sense of the word. A covenant requires two parties, no? Judaism requires God to be complete.

  • unsure
    unsure

    @David_Jay

    If there was no fall of man out of God's favor it means that the universe as it is now is as intended by God. It is full of suffering. Why would a loving God design it this way? It doesn't seem right. Christianity tries to explain suffering (but still fails in my opinion) through the fall of man.

    Either way, if this God really cared surely they could have conceived a better design without the need to test us.

    As brought out, this life is not always a gift to many. I have to take a high dosage of anxiety/anti-depressant medication just to function. The last time I tried to live without it, I had a severe, lengthy mental breakdown. Even now, on the medication, some days it is just enough to survive let alone enjoy life and see it as a gift.

    I can't imagine what it is like for those even less fortunate than me.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay
    If YHWH is real, but not "God," what is He? Is He intelligence? Or is He the sum of stories created around countless fires on dark desert night?

    You misunderstood. YHVH is not "a god" in the traditional sense.

    In Jewish theology, "gods" are fabrications made by the Gentiles. There are no such things as gods. YHVH is the Cause of the universe, intelligent and real, yes, but far more more than a god. People can understand the concept of a god or deity, but YHVH defies such. Jews borrowed "god-language" from their Mesopotamian neighbors, but the God of Abraham is beyond that of the concept of deity. The Great Cause of All, the mathematics and laws that govern all, and all of this which cannot even be guessed at is what Jews call "God"--personal and impersonal, knowable and beyond knowing, a Cause we can attempt to speak of but is really ineffable.

    But in what sense is God real? If He is an intelligence and is not a GOD, what is He and why did He take an interest in the Jews?

    Jewish sages have taught that the universe is the "effect" noticed by Abraham. He reasoned that this "effect" that he, himself was a part of must have a "Cause." Since we, the "effect," are real, then the Cause must be real too.

    God is not merely intelligence either. Our God is far greater than just that. Since Abraham was the one who among his contemporaries who embraced this fact, God chose his descendents to carry on this understanding. This concept is what Jewish theology calls "monotheism": no God but one, no god but God.

  • wizzstick
    wizzstick

    Try to be specific because the Bible is full of stories.

    Shall i go on?

    You may need to as they've gone very quiet.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Unsure wrote:

    If there was no fall of man out of God's favor it means that the universe as it is now is as intended by God. It is full of suffering. Why would a loving God design it this way? It doesn't seem right. Christianity tries to explain suffering (but still fails in my opinion) through the fall of man.
    Either way, if this God really cared surely they could have conceived a better design without the need to test us.

    You kind of answered the reason why you have this question in the first place. You said that "Christianity tries to explain suffering."

    The type of question you are asking is based on what I personally call the "Hippie-Jesus-Love" idea of God. It's totally Christian. It sees God as this epitome of love that fits a definition designed by human beings that force God to love according to definitions and limits and expectations they have made.

    To the Jewish mind, this is nothing more than making another golden calf. You (and this may be more than you Christians who see things this way) are the one that is saying that the way things are "doesn't seem right." God never said that that the world right now isn't the way God planned it.

    You are the one that is claiming that the suffering in the world is incompatible with God. If there is a God, how do you know this? Can you prove to anybody, everyone, and anyone that what you expect God to be is right?

    Let us say you are not suffering. Let us say you are healthy and rich. Will you then complain that God is unloving because you are now without suffering, and you are satisfied but someone else is not so fortunate? Do the rich call God unfair because they are rich?

    Let's go one step further. Let's say you have two shirts. You meet a man who has none. He suffers because he has no shirt. What do you do? To end his suffering you must give him a shirt, but you only have two. If you give one away, you make yourself poorer and put yourself at risk. You will ease this other man's suffering, but you will begin to suffer. Is it wrong that you begin to suffer? Again, your suffering is easing the suffering of another. If that is the case, is suffering bad and unloving?

    When a parent works overtime to have enough money to buy medicine for their suffering child, and the extra work means some suffering on behalf of the parent, is the suffering the parent endures evil or a demonstration of love, something good?

    You see, suffering is not an indicator of something morally bad or wrong. Ask anyone who works out to gain a better physique or who must endure months of physical rehabilitation to regain their ability to walk after a stroke--does their suffering bring about more suffering or less? Is it bad or beneficial?

    Suffering has no moral quality to it. Some things hurt. Even some good things hurt, even for an extended period of time. On the other side, doing something like getting high with a drug can feel great and bring disaster.

    Suffering and not suffering are not indicators of benevolence. True, a handful of salt when there is no water can be terrible to endure. but the fact that some people seem to only get salt doesn't mean water doesn't exist or that salt can't be good.

    The problem you are describing may not have answers in Judaism, but Christianity's claim of a Fall from Grace and a Savior to redeem us from doesn't seem to help you any either. Perhaps you might need to stop seeing things as good and bad, and perhaps try to stop trying to see life as some experiment by which God is trying to test us.

  • unsure
    unsure

    @David_Jay

    A human parent cannot be equally used in an illustration to explain an infinitely powerful being with the ability to do anything. However, if we are going to do so, a human father will do all he can to remove the smallest amount of suffering from their children.

    Why can't this heavenly father remove suffering from his very creation?

    The book of Isaiah describes God's love.

    Genesis says we were created in his image.

    If God is loving and we were created in his image, how can I not hold God to this expectation?

    Let's say God isn't as loving; if so then why is he worthy of recognition?

    Yes suffering can have a moral quality to it when you have the power to stop it.

    Yes, suffering is incompatible with God when they have the power to stop it and remove it from creation​. Yes suffering is an indicator of benevolence when God has the power to remove it.

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