Unbelief and Salvation

by lriddle80 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  lriddle80

  Hebrews 6:4-8

  For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

  But then I read articles that say that you cannot lose your salvation and that this scripture isn't talking about that.

  But then 2 Timothy says

  The saying is trustworthy, for:

  If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
  12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
  if we deny him, he also will deny us;
  13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

  for he cannot deny himself.

  Some would say a person that is truly saved can not lose their salvation and that a truly saved person, sealed in the Holy Spirit would never become an unbeliever, but some have made that claim.

  I would love to believe that upon profession of faith, they are saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit that no matter what happens they *have* that salvation, but I'm not so sure when I read scriptures like above.

  What do you think? Let's talk about it!!
• 

  cofty

  It's the christian version of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

  It's identical to the way JWs comfort themselves that apostates were never REALLY true believers. It gives comfort and calms fears that just maybe the one who left knew something you ought to think about.

  Yes Heb 6 is perfectly clear that true believers 'who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit' do leave faith.
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  Anony Mous

  I would love to believe

  
  Then do believe that, it’s a free country. Hebrews and Timothy were written by different authors to different audiences, so obviously there will be some conflict on the message and potential interpretation.
  I’m not sure where you get that you couldn’t lose salvation from the second scripture. Both of them say the same thing in slightly different wordings.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Reminds me of the time Ned Flanders had a nervous breakdown. He asked God - why, since he believed everything the Bible says...even the parts that contradict the other parts.

  My take is that people can kick a hole in the ark if they want. Contrary to Reformed Theology, free will got us in and free will can take us out.

  However, nothing external to ourselves can separate us from the love of God in Christ. Romans 8:39
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  peacefulpete

  Vander..."God's will" was generally deemed the source of all that is and will be. As such the modern concept of human freewill was quite foreign. It was not a contradiction to say some Christians were of a sort that would leave because that outcome was seen as the working of God, part of the mystery. Those who were destined to become godlike in the heavens were the 'chosen' not the choosers. Mind you theology becomes both more and less complicated with this outlook.
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  lriddle80

  Ok. Well I guess people can forfeit their salvation with unbelief. I just don't see why anyone would want to. Once you've tasted the goodness of God and seen the miracles. I couldn't do it knowing what I know now.

  I lived as an atheist for about 10 years after leaving JW and it was hell for me!

  As soon as I heard that I could possibly be forgiven by Jesus I ran to him! My JW family wasn't offering forgiveness, the JW weren't offering forgiveness. Then I performed religion for 10 years and I always felt like something was missing.

  Then about 5 years ago I really understood that I couldn't save myself that Jesus had to do it because he was God and I wasn't and I humiliated myself and bowed my knee. I don't feel like anything is missing now.

  I think about those 2 experiences and wonder if I was in a saved state before I truly understood the gospel. I could intellectually tell you anything about the bible or salvation and i believed i was saved before, but I was missing something.

  And we don't know if anyone else is saved, and maybe leaving and putting belief on hold is part of a faith journey.

  Only God knows a person's heart. I want everyone to be saved because I love people and I end up caring about people and so I contend for them. That's all. So, I feel sad for you, those that choose to forfeit love. I was once that person, but thanks be to God for not leaving me there.
• 

  cofty

  'forfeit love'

  Wow!
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  pokertopia

  죤 칼뱅의 구원론입니다. 그의 말은 맞기도 하고 틀리기도 합니다. 참으로 구원 받은 사람, 예를 들면 예수 그리스도와 같은 사람은 영원한 구원입니다. 그러나 계시록에서는 생명책에 이름을 지우겠다고도 말합니다. 어떤 신학 관념이라 하더라도 그것은 맞기도 틀리기도 합니다. 왜냐하면 인간이 세운 이론은 진리 전체를 포괄하지 못하기 때문입니다.

  It's John Calvin's theory of salvation. What he says is both right and wrong. A truly saved person, for example Jesus Christ, is eternal salvation. But the Book of Revelation also says that it will erase its name from the book of life. Any theological notion is right and wrong. Because human-built theories don't cover the whole truth.
  
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  punkofnice

  I80 - What do you think?

  If you had 500 theologians discussing this, lots of them would disagree on their interpretation.

  This is why I find discussion of these things a bit pointless.

  We all think differently. We may say, 'There's either something after death or there isn't.'
• 

  nicolaou

  However, nothing external to ourselves can separate us from the love of God in Christ. Romans 8:39

  Vanderhoven you have never been willing to debate your faith and the claims you make with me. I'll ask again if you would change your mind.