My thoughts are that the ‘Israel of God’ mentioned in Galatians is probably referring to faithful, believing Jews (if you read the chapter in context). Alternatively, it could be referring to ALL Christians. I think the label ISRAEL is only ever used in the NT to refer to physical Israel (apart from maybe that verse in Galatians). I don’t know for sure, but my guess is that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 & 14 are also Jews (which is exactly what those passages say). The Great Crowd mentioned in chapter 7 are said to be from ‘every nation’ which is a term for the Gentiles. So, to me, the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are referring to Jews and Gentiles. In fact those two groups are mentioned through the NT, inc John 10, parable of the wedding feast, and other places). Paul, in Ephesians 2 defines who the two groups are (Jews & Gentiles) and says they are brought together in Jesus and made to be one fold with one shepherd and with one hope. In Revelation 7 the 144,000 are clearly on the earth at the start of the Tribulation whilst the Great Crowd are clearly in heaven and worshipping God before the throne (Naos in Greek, which means ‘inner sanctuary’), so obviously in heaven. In chapter 14, the 144,000 are then shown as being in heaven. So, to me it is clearly stating that both groups end up in heaven, which is exactly what Watchtower used to originally teach!
Food for thought ? Talking to a JW ?
by smiddy3 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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smiddy3
Hi PhilosophicalLogic ,
Welcome to this forum ,to answer your question this is an ex-JW site and I was a JW for 32 years until I woke up to the BS.
Study and research of what the JW`s have taught, and back tracked / flipfloped their doctrines and practices ,you just start asking these questions .
The JW`s are indoctrinated into not asking questions ,the Governing Body / leaders of JW`s have done all the research a JW needs to know.
Criticisms are all Satan inspired and products of Apostates who have left the religion , so they claim.
So the good / faithful JW close their mind and ears to anything other than what is taught by the F&DS class the Governing Body.
Stick around friend this is a great forum with many informed people about Jehovah`s Witnesses.
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TTWSYF
1.When did the modern day JW religion begin?
A_even including the IBSA, the religion is less than 200 years old. Impossible to be the truth of Christ in any way what so ever.
2.They claim that they were chosen in 1919 by Jesus at his inspection when he returned invisibly in 1914
A_ another ridiculous claim that has no basis in reality in any way. Jesus did not inspect all religions and grant the WTS as the best. It's just another lie.
3.The beliefs and practices of the IBSA were/are rejected by the JW`s of today ,so if what they beleived and preached back then they would be rejected by GOD today
A_Awake and Watchtower articles contradict their own publications and beliefs constantly. Old publications can be considered apostate material. Try to figure that one out.
How is anyone still involved with this organization?
When did the bible become the all or nothing authority? It's a Catholic book and they use it for their liturgy, not as their guide to living, only as a guide while living.
The Truth Will Set You Free
TTWSYF
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PhilosophicalLogic
@smiddy3
Thanks so much for the welcome. :) 32 years, wow! So what was it that finally convinced you to leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses? Also, were you born into the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or did you convert from another religion?
And what do you believe now? Are you a Christian, an Atheist, something else? Thanks for discussing!
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Vanderhoven7
@Biahi
"That issue of The Watch Tower further stated: "in 1920,...Bible Students came to a correct understanding of our Lord's prophecy contained in Matthew 24:14. They then realized that 'this gospel' which was to be preached in all the world for a testimony to the Gentiles or all nations, was not a gospel of a kingdom yet to come but a gospel to the effect that the Messianic King has begun his reign over the earth."WT Feb 1, 2006 p.25
If God Has an Organization, What Is It? Let the honest-hearted person compare the kind of preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom done by the religious systems of Christendom during all the centuries with that done by Jehovah’s Witnesses since the end of World War I in 1918. They are not one and the same kind. That of Jehovah’s Witnesses is really “gospel,” or “good news,” as of God’s heavenly kingdom that was established by the enthronement of his Son Jesus Christ at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914. (Luke 21:24) The worldwide witness given to this effect under the barrage of international persecution and opposition could have been given only by means of God’s all-conquering spirit. It was accomplished neither by the spirit of man nor by that of Satan the Devil. It was done with the help of God’s holy angels, as is indicated in Revelation 14:6, 7: WT 1981 5/1 pp.17-18
What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached?
...What vital thing has now been added to the good news of the kingdom of God that Jesus Christ and his zealous apostles used to preach nineteen hundred years ago? This, namely, the birth of God’s Messianic kingdom in the heavens at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914. And after the ensuing war in the invisible heavens and the ouster of Satan the Devil and his demons from heaven and down to earth, this announcement was sounded forth, to be added to the good news, as stated in Revelation 12:9-12: WT 67 12/15 pp. 758
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smiddy3
To answer your questions ,I converted when I was 20, and it was a gradual awakening starting with many small things that just grew till it couldn`t be ignored / excused anymore.
I now consider myself an atheist as far as any man made God Bible religion is concerned but I am still in awe of the universe life and know that I dont have all the answers .
Tell us a bit more about yourself ?
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PhilosophicalLogic
@smiddy3
Thanks so much for sharing that smiddy3! My story starts with being raised Christian, but getting taught a lot of false doctrine/heresies. When I learned about the idea of evolution in high school I became an Atheist for about ten years. Then I was exposed to orthodox theology and Christian apologetics, and became an Evangelical Protestant. That was twenty years ago, and I am still a Christian. I just recently decided to start trying to share the Gospel with Jehovah’s Witnesses, and that’s when I found this site.
You guys really seem to know your stuff, this seems like a great little community.
Regarding your choice of Atheism, I can understand. Once you’ve been burned by believing a false religion, you must feel like you can’t trust your beliefs on that subject anymore. But I would love to ask you, what do you think of the Kalam Cosmological Argument?
The Kalam Cosmological Argument
Based on the Beginning of the Universe
1 Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2 The universe began to exist.
3 Therefore, the universe has a cause.
Once we reach the conclusion that the universe has a cause, we can then analyze what properties such a cause must have and assess its theological significance.
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smiddy3
Thank you Phillosophicallogic,
But to me that is just another religious idea exposed by humans ,if the universe did have a beginning there had to be "something" prior to that for the Universe to come into being .
Sorry but I wouldn`t waste my time with the thought ,I know you mean well but thank`s anyway.
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Overrated
Talking to a Jw will give you a headache. Listen to them struggle thru the questions. Flip flop. Spin around and around and out of context. When you ask them a question that makes them think they run and hide or view you as the devil himself. All you did was ask a deep question.
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PhilosophicalLogic
@smiddy3
Thanks so much for looking at the argument anyway. It’s interesting to ponder, even if you’re not interested in Christianity. Again, I can understand how being deceived by the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult for so many years would make you wary of any religious claims.