by IronGland 42 Replies latest watchtower bible
this is true in the case of some sort of professional army.. the greek hoplites were more of a part-time force, fighting in periods when work wasn't needed on the farms, allowing the greeks to field some pretty large armies.
its possibly the isrealites could have done something similar in order to have large fighting forces availabe (and like the pellipinissius.. isreal is a very small area). not that the numbers in the bible are necessarilly accurate.
The number of combatants in 2 Chronicles 13 is certainly possible.
Firstly other places in the Old testament give the number of the standing army as being much smaller.
1 Chronicles 27Commanders of the Army
1 Now this is the enumeration of the sons of Israel, the heads of fathers' households, the commanders of thousands and of hundreds, and their officers who served the king in all the affairs of the divisions which came in and went out month by month throughout all the months of the year, each division numbering 24,000:
2 Jashobeam the son of Zabdiel [1] (1) had charge of the first division for the first month; and in his division were 24,000.
3 He was from the sons of Perez, and was chief of all the commanders of the army for the first month.
4 Dodai the Ahohite and his division had charge of the division for the second month, Mikloth being the chief officer; and in his division were 24,000.
5 The third commander of the army for the third month was Benaiah, the son of Jehoiada the priest, as chief; and in his division were 24,000.
6 This Benaiah was the mighty man of the thirty, and had charge of thirty; and over his division was Ammizabad his son.
7 The fourth for the fourth month was Asahel the brother of Joab, and Zebadiah his son after him; and in his division were 24,000.
8 The fifth for the fifth month was the commander Shamhuth the Izrahite; and in his division were 24,000.
9 The sixth for the sixth month was Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite; and in his division were 24,000.
10 The seventh for the seventh month was Helez the Pelonite of the sons of Ephraim; and in his division were 24,000.
11 The eighth for the eighth month was Sibbecai the Hushathite of the Zerahites; and in his division were 24,000.
12 The ninth for the ninth month was Abiezer the Anathothite of the Benjamites; and in his division were 24,000.
13 The tenth for the tenth month was Maharai the Netophathite of the Zerahites; and in his division were 24,000.
14 The eleventh for the eleventh month was Benaiah the Pirathonite of the sons of Ephraim; and in his division were 24,000.
15 The twelfth for the twelfth month was Heldai the Netophathite of Othniel; and in his division were 24,000.
This gives a standing army of 288,000 (which may not have all served at one time, but on a rotational schedule)
1 Now this is the enumeration of the sons of Israel, the heads of fathers' households, the commanders of thousands and of hundreds, and their officers who served the king in all the affairs of the divisions which came in and went out month by month throughout all the months of the year, each division numbering 24,000:
The combatants in 2 chronicles 13 were alomost certainly not a full time, paid, force of professional soldiers such as the Romans later had.
I live in Kansas and would estimate the full time paid number of soldiers in the US military from Kansas at approx. 20,000. However if necessary (for example in an all out short term battle with Nebraska) I estimate that a force of 600,000 men of fighting age could be assembled ( 50% of the male population under age 65.) Of course this force could only be sustained fror a short period.
Kansas Population Statistics
| US Census 2002 Total Population Estimate | 2,715,884 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The number of potential fighters in 2 Chronicles 13 is also backed up by the census taken during the life of David when he "numbered Israel"
1 Chronicles 21Census Brings Pestilence
1 (1) Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.
2 So David said to Joab and to the princes of the people, " (2) Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan, and bring me word that I may know their number."
3 Joab said, " (3) May the LORD add to His people a hundred times as many as they are! But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? Why does my lord seek this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt to Israel?"
4 Nevertheless, the king's word prevailed against Joab. Therefore, Joab departed and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.
5 Joab gave the number of the census of all the people to David. And (4) all Israel were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword; and Judah was 470,000 men who drew the sword.
6 (5) But he did not number Levi and Benjamin among them, for the king's command was abhorrent to Joab.
This was not the full time standing army which was much smaller. Also the figures above from the census can be matched up precisely with other totals of sub-divisions from other old testament passages. This shows that they were actual numbers and not just made up. I will try to list the accounting later showing the total number of able bodied fighting males in Israel and Judah as well as the figures for the standing army which was much smaller.
I believe that the standing army for Israel numbered 36,000 (a division of 24,000 from above plus 12,000 Jerusalm guard) and for Judah 30,000 (accoring to Geisler). This gives a total of 66,000 for the full time army at any month, which is reasonable.
During the time of David, Israel had a "surge" capacity of 1,100,000 and Judah had a "surge" capacity of 500,000. This gives a total of 1,600,000 males of military age. The war described in 2 Chronichles 13 took place probably over 60 years after David's census which would allow the potential military age population to grow well above 1,600,000. Thus there were more than enough men to participate in a short war involving 1,200,000 men.
During the exodus the number of military age men is listed at around 600,000. Given the long period of time between the exodus and 2 Chronicles 13 there is more than sufficient time for the numbers to grow to that point.
Today Israel can mobilize a 600,000 person army consisting of "regularly trained reserves" within 72 hours!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/army.htm
Others census' in the Bible are supported by the fact that figures for all the other tribes are also listed and totaled. Hense an actual census.
Numbers 1The Census of Israel's Warriors
1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on (1) the first of the second month, in the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying,
2 " (2) Take a [1] census of all the congregation of the sons of Israel, by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, every male, head by head
3 from (3) twenty years old and upward, whoever is able to go out to war in Israel, you and Aaron shall [2] number them by their armies.
4 "With you, moreover, there shall be a man of each tribe, (4) each one head of his father's household.
5 "These then are the names of the men who shall stand with you: (5) of Reuben, Elizur the son of Shedeur;
6 of Simeon, Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai;
7 of Judah, (6) Nahshon the son of Amminadab;
8 of Issachar, Nethanel the son of Zuar;
9 of Zebulun, Eliab the son of Helon;
10 of the sons of Joseph: of Ephraim, Elishama the son of Ammihud; of Manasseh, Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur;
11 of Benjamin, Abidan the son of Gideoni;
12 of Dan, Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai;
13 of Asher, Pagiel the son of Ochran;
14 of Gad, Eliasaph the son of (7) Deuel;
15 of Naphtali, Ahira the son of Enan.
16 "These are they who were (8) called of the congregation, the leaders of their fathers' tribes; they were the (9) heads of [3] divisions of Israel."
17 So Moses and Aaron took these men who had been designated by name,
18 and they assembled all the congregation together on the (10) first of the second month. Then they registered by (11) ancestry in their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, head by head,
19 just as (12) the LORD had commanded Moses. So he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.
20 (13) Now the sons of Reuben, Israel's firstborn, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, head by head, every male from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
21 their numbered men of the tribe of Reuben were 46,500.
22 (14) Of the sons of Simeon, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, their numbered men, according to the number of names, head by head, every male from twenty years old and upward, (15) whoever was able to go out to war,
23 their numbered men of the tribe of Simeon were 59,300.
24 (16) Of the sons of Gad, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
25 their numbered men of the tribe of Gad were 45,650.
26 (17) Of the sons of Judah, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
27 their numbered men of the tribe of Judah were 74,600.
28 (18) Of the sons of Issachar, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
29 their numbered men of the tribe of Issachar were 54,400.
30 (19) Of the sons of Zebulun, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
31 their numbered men of the tribe of Zebulun were 57,400.
32 (20) Of the sons of Joseph, namely, of the sons of Ephraim, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
33 their numbered men of the tribe of Ephraim were 40,500.
34 (21) Of the sons of Manasseh, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
35 their numbered men of the tribe of Manasseh were 32,200.
36 (22) Of the sons of Benjamin, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
37 their numbered men of the tribe of Benjamin were 35,400.
38 (23) Of the sons of Dan, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
39 their numbered men of the tribe of Dan were 62,700.
40 (24) Of the sons of Asher, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
41 their numbered men of the tribe of Asher were 41,500.
42 (25) Of the sons of Naphtali, their genealogical registration by their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war,
43 their numbered men of the tribe of Naphtali were 53,400.
44 These are the ones who were numbered, whom Moses and Aaron numbered, with the leaders of Israel, twelve men, each of whom was of his father's household.
45 So all the numbered men of the sons of Israel by their fathers' households, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war in Israel,
46 even all the numbered men were (26) 603,550.
From counts here it shows that the number of militarily capable men during the time of the Exodus was 603,550. This does not mean that they ware a standing army though, but only that they were "able to go out to war" Also a later count in the book of Numbers gives slightly higher figures for each of the tribes adding up to slightly higher number due to population growth between the two censuses. Thus the book of numbers gives two specific censuses (each one broken down by tribes).
First, where does it say that Ahaziah began to REIGN
immediately after his father's death? In other words,
Israel was without a fully reigning king for some time
because Ahziah was not old enough to reign. But this
is not unusual in history. Many of the Pharoahs and
kings of england died and yet their eldest son could
not rule until they became an adult. Also, the Bible
often speaks of events as if one happened immediately
after the other and skips of years of history. For
example, when Moses goes into the desert we don't hear
anything about him for quite some time. So there is a
time gap between verse 22:1 and 22:2. So large amounts
of time are often not recorded in between events.
Also, notice in 22:1 it states that they made him
king, but in verse 22:2 it states when he began to
REIGN as king. Who reigned in his stead? Read 22:2,
"His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of
Omri." If I recall correctly, one of the Kings of
england's mother ruled until her son was old enough to
reign. Monarchiesare not like presidencies, the postion of a
king does not have to immediately filled by a reigning king.
Some people backing the accuracy of the size of the army have drawn comparisons with what modern Israel can do. This is a false comparison, as modern Israel is considerably larger. Such people have also ignored the quote made by City Fan;
It (Canaan) gradually developed into a mature system with large cities, medium sized regional market centers, and small villages. By the highpoint of this settlement wave in the eighth century BCE, after the establishment of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, it encompassed over 500 sites, with a population of about 160,000. - Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel, Finkelstein and Silberman.
... and the excellent post by Dansk, and by others.
Of course. such arguments ignore that inaccuracy in the claimed sizes of armies et. al. is really small beer to the claims for a global flood in the Bible. There is no evidence for such a flood ever having taken place (ther are disticnt geographical features that can be observed today in areas that were inundated at certain points), and there is strong evidence that trees that would have perished in the Flood, if such a thing took place, were standing before after and during any time frame that fits with the time frame in the Bible for this event. There are also undisturbed deposits on lake bottoms that show seasonal layers, just as the trees show seasonal rings, that would have been disrupted by a global flood, and go back way past any possible date for this.
If entire events were fabricated or enlarged (local flood -> global flood), then it's unsurprising that other numbers are also swelled to be more impressive at times.
What surprises me is that people will try to defend minor details such as the cited scripture, when there are far more signal and pertinant signs of the Bible just being a work of literature that is neither totally historically accurate or inspired.
Abbadon
neither totally historically accurate or inspired.
That's really a jw thing - to insist upon the two.
Jesus spoke of Jonah, but the story is just that - a story - no one got swallowed by a whale and rode around under the sea - though I do believe he may have died.
Consider a story - consider how they grow - and that the wheat is kept and the chaff is burned.
The chaff is staw - for making bricks.
paduan
The Bible is not attempting to teach history nor science. It is not a history book nor a scientific treatise. There can be errors of fact in some areas--history, numerals and biology--and yet it can be inerrant in the required sense that it teaches without error that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Scriptures. In inspiring the human authors, God made use of their talents and limitations in insuring that revelation will be communicated through these writings. The grace of inspiration leaves the human instrument intact. Hence, the human author's lack of knowledge or proneness to error in certain areas does not undermine the inerrancy of the Scripture's communication of Divine Revelation.
The Bible is a book on theology and should be treated as such.
like builders use - chaff for holding the clay together - for things like towers etc
Is that accurate?
paduan
Abaddon said: Of course. such arguments ignore that inaccuracy in the claimed sizes of armies et. al. is really small beer to the claims for a global flood in the Bible. There is no evidence for such a flood ever having taken place (ther are disticnt geographical features that can be observed today in areas that were inundated at certain points), and there is strong evidence that trees that would have perished in the Flood, if such a thing took place, were standing before after and during any time frame that fits with the time frame in the Bible for this event. There are also undisturbed deposits on lake bottoms that show seasonal layers, just as the trees show seasonal rings, that would have been disrupted by a global flood, and go back way past any possible date for this.If entire events were fabricated or enlarged (local flood -> global flood), then it's unsurprising that other numbers are also swelled to be more impressive at times.
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" 2 Peter 3:3-6
The bible "scoffers" here will many times return to their default position of "there was no global flood."
Those who wish to see the evidence for the global flood (and an answer to Abaddon's arguments) can go to the following link:
