Are 'we' Rubbing the dubs?

by philo 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • patio34
    patio34

    Philo,

    Imo Java is correct. However, is the premise true that the WTBS is 'at war' because of us on the net? And does it make life harder for dubs? I think the answer is no to both.

    The WTBS has always been 'at war' with someone. Even people who pay no attention to them. It's the governments, the churches, the evil 'world,' ad nauseum. The 'apostates' (read heretics) are just another group of people 'against the poor godly people of Jehovah'. BOO-HOO!

    So, no, the info on the web doesn't make the paranoid WTBS harder on joe-dub. Besides, they can get hoisted with their own petard, if you will, if they are harder because the average joe-dub will only take so much.

    I, for one, am SO grateful for the info on the web and this DB!! I left only 2 months ago and it has been an inestimable help. You can only find out so much at the public library.

    So, all of you that are working hard to overcome oppression--THANKS!

    Patio

  • Prisca
    Prisca
    are we helping enough individuals to exit the borg to justify contributing to the armoury of their leadership, which points inward on the remaining dubs?

    The answer to this is : YES!

    I think there are many many JWs out there that have doubts, are unsure who to turn to, and in the privacy of their own home or work place, can look up the internet and see that they are not alone!

    I was just like that, having questions that weren't being answered by the WTS, knowing something was wrong, but just couldn't put my finger on it. I suffered great dispair and depression, thinking I had wronged God with my doubts and questions.

    By coming onto the Net, and discovering the answers I had been looking for, it was a turn-around in my life.

    I will be forever grateful to those that have put up and maintain those sites to help others who want to know the real truth about the "truth".

    By having this armoury up on the Net it may give the WTS excuses to wage war against the "apostates" on the internet. But they can't prevent the amount of information that is out there, available for ALL to see and thus make a decision for themselves.

  • philo
    philo

    To All

    I suppose this thread was started partly as a continuation of my recent sighing about the old H2O with YK and co., but mostly it was sparked by Esmerelda's critical farewell.

    My questions have been given pretty solid answers. And though I have called into question the existence of this community, nobody has even hinted that I should desist such questioning. Thanks to everyone either for working through the questions themselves, or for delving into the reasons for asking: Cornerstone, Patio34, Prisca.

    However, I would not want every discussion to be so mature and productive. Arguments are fun, dramatic, and ad hominem attacks often draw people together unexpectedly by revealing our true selves. One of the most refreshing things we can offer to the Watchtower's walking wounded is something they cannot have in their infra world: a place to be heard - even if (or especially if) they disagree with us.

    Thanks again

    philo

  • Thirdson
    Thirdson

    Just my thought on the JW/WTS pressure. Throughout its history the WTS has made everything new a "boogeyman" Today it's the Internet, a few years back video games, music, video movies. In the 70's it was TV and we were questioned whether we even needed one. We didn't get a color TV at home until 1981 when I bought one with my siblings for use at home. Go further back and vacinations and aluminum cookware was at fault.

    OK, the Internet is the most serious threat to the WTS because of the free flow of information in relative anonimity. But I don't think this information is making it too hard for JW's The thing with this "war" is that getting out is the easiest solution. Today most JW's in the western world have TV, video/DVD players. Many of them think nothing of watching R-rated (18) movies at home. The WTS has not relaxed standards but millions ignore their pontifications. So it is/will be with the Internet. It is not the medium but the less subjugated state of the average Joe Witness that is the WTS's biggest concern.

    Thirdson

    'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

  • patio34
    patio34

    Philo,

    That was a really thoughtful post. Thanks for all the respect and courtesy. You're right--THIS is how 'people learn from each other,' by free discussion and debate about their opinions and ideas.

    Patio

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hey Thirdson!

    You bought a color TV with your siblings? Cool! Wish I could have gotten rid of my little brother so easily. But maybe I could have gotten only a black and white.

    AlanF

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : But does the 'war', which we wage against the WTBTS, result in it treating its members worse? Do you think 'we' inadvertently contribute to the hardening of doctrinal lines, making life more restrictive for Joe dub.

    No one spoke out against the Nazis when they had the chance. Look what happened. Do you think the society would be more lenient and flexible with their members if there was virtually no objection to whatever they did?

    Farkel

  • philo
    philo

    Farkel,

    No one spoke out against the Nazis when they had the chance. Look what happened. Do you think the society would be more lenient and flexible with their members if there was virtually no objection to whatever they did?

    Do you think that's what I think you think of what I think? So many questions. ;)

    I guess you choose this example to imply that Nazi-like evil resides in Brooklyn. I don't know about that. The things I call evil are things I don't understand. But as for the WTBTS, I understand it's motives and weaknesses a bit too well to call it evil.
    When it comes to hand wringing and 'waiting on Jehovah' to handle difficult issues, they are tops. And so I doubt that the writers of the religious-supremacy, theocratic master-race-type BS, or their organisation, would be able to stomach the consequences of enacting their ideology in a post-Armageddon holocaust.

    My feeling is that 'we' have a very small effect on the WTBTS, and through them, on the r+f. Ray Franz made a good case (in the latest COC) for Proclaimers having been altered to counter his observations. But those changes hardly amount to anything new in terms of their attitude to leadership (and their readership). I certainly agree with most, that many individuals are helped out because of resources like this one.

    Philo

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : I guess you choose this example to imply that Nazi-like evil resides in Brooklyn.

    Do you recall the statement in the 1954 Watchtower where the society "regretted" that they could not have parents stone their own rebellious children?

    Consider the fact the the main goal of the society is to have all those who disagree with them (6 billion people) brutally murdered using God as the "bad cop" to do the dirty work. Then, after that is accomplished the society themselves will be the undisputed rulers of this planet and even during the thousand year reign, anyone who gets out of line will also be murdered. THEN after the thousand years is over the society will STILL be ruling this planet (in Heaven, hahahahaha!) and anyone who THEN gets out of line will be murdered.

    This is their fantasy, but it is very real for them. The Nazis had a very similar fantasy. The only difference is that the Nazis didn't want to wait for God. Who's to say that the society will also lose patience with waiting for God someday. They've already demonstrated they have no moral problem with letting thousands of their own die due to blood, vaccinations, organ transplants and their stands on military service. They've already demonstrated they don't care that hundreds of thousands have spent their entire lives in their service, only to then be discarded and ignored as worn-out human refuse or even worse, driven out (like Franz, Dunlap and countless thousands of others) and put on the streets with no money, friends or family to comfort of support them.

    Do I consider to WTS to be like Nazi Germany? Not really. The Nazis actually solved economic problems in Germany and made sure their people were well-fed and well-clothed. The WTS hasn't even done that.
    In fact they've done NOTHING but lie, put forth false hopes and fantasies and destroy lives and families. It would be extremly unfair to the Nazis to make such a comparison.

    Farkel

  • philo
    philo

    Farkel, I enjoy your writing so much, that I have to resist the temptation to agree with everything you say. So I have cut around all your wit, to prevent you seducing too many others.

    Do you recall the statement in the 1954 Watchtower where the society "regretted" that they could not have parents stone their own rebellious children?

    Yes, I recall something of that. I also recall my father, using this line, threatening to kill my brother if he continued to resist The Truth. But as badly as he treated us, I do not think he could have gone so far. There's a point where ideology has to face itself, the point of execution (pun).

    If you project the current WT leadership into some approximation of their New World fantasy - a Watchtower world - it is clear enough that it could never work. They would quickly become marginalized and then irrelevant, and other powers would spring up from among the survivors to fill the vacuum.

    Who's to say that the society will also lose patience with waiting for God someday.

    Well, me actually, LOL. They have been waiting, not just for God, but for The World too. While they say, "God has his own time" to rain blue murder, that "time" is also defined: politically, religiously, chronologically, environmentally, economically, or even Franzically, and so on; they mix and mush to keep the pot stirred up. They obviously wait for much more than just God. So I think this shows how much they are professional waiters and cooks, and are therefore reactive to the world's 'menu'. This is a deep down characteristic of WT 'leadership', which I think, allows for the sort of irresponsibility you describe…

    They've already demonstrated they have no moral problem with letting thousands of their own die due to blood, vaccinations, organ transplants and their stands on military service

    As a cult, at odds with the present world of humanity, they have made a virtue of being blind to that humanity. How else can they hope to watch approvingly the destruction of 99.9 per cent of it? This virtue-of-blindness allows the present corporation, as well as its individuals, to avoid facing the moral consequences of their policies. They cope with their own inhumanity by: leaving it to Jehovah, or leaving it to the Welfare system, or leaving it to free-will, or even leaving it to Satan. Whichever way it goes, it comes down to 'leaving'. I think it explains what you describe here…

    They've already demonstrated they don't care that hundreds of thousands have spent their entire lives in their service, only to then be discarded and ignored as worn-out human refuse or even worse, driven out (like Franz, Dunlap and countless thousands of others) and put on the streets with no money, friends or family to comfort of support them.

    They leave these people behind. But in a New World there is no leaving. When the dream is realized, and the world is destroyed, the cultic bunker-mentality and its virtue-of-blindness would have to cease, because there would be no more imaginary opposition or fantastic enemies. There would be billions of innocent carcasses rotting accusingly, that's all. With nobody left to blame, nobody left to characterize as 'the enemy', and no virtue-of-blindness, they would have to face the consequences of their leadership or, more likely, they would be replaced by those who could face the consequences.

    Conclusion:
    Even the meekest, sweetest, Nazschien in blonde pigtails, would take offense at being compared to a Watchtowerite. They actively pursued their ideologies, and (more or less) faced their consequences one by one, rather than just dreaming and talking about them. Real politics and social responsibility are alien to the WTBTS. But the WT New World would shove these real concepts so far up its ass, it would give new meaning to the words "lets watch how we walk, and watch how we talk"

    philo

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