Need Reference (page 2)

hooberus

cassiline said:

I have found with the little research (very little) and my grasp on the “ton theos” "(divine/a god) vs. “ho theos” (The Divine/The God) and “The Logos”. That I can only come to the conclusion is that the translation shows a “duality” at best and not a trinity when referencing John 1:1 only. How Christians can claim that an amalgamation of the Holy Ghost with “a God” and "the Word” creates a trinity and not see only a duality is baffling at most, IMO. If one reads this scripture and accepts how it is written relying only on “mans” interpretation and faith only, then I see one being commanded to believe in a "Duality", not a "Trinity." However Greek scholars are in agreement that the wording "The Word was God" or "the Word was divine" is the correct way to understand the last passage of John 1:1.

Christians use John 1:1 to support the deity of the Father and Jesus Christ. The deity of the Holy Spirit is supported by many other scriptues. In addition there are other scriptures which support the deity of all three persons in the Trinity.

nowisee

hooberus, thank you.

can you give me scriptures that show that Holy Spirit = God?

Cassiline

I have found with the little research (very little) and my grasp on the “ton theos” "(divine/a god) vs. “ho theos” (The Divine/The God) and “The Logos”. That I can only come to the conclusion is that the translation shows a “duality” at best and not a trinity when referencing John 1:1 only. How Christians can claim that an amalgamation of the Holy Ghost with “a God” and "the Word” creates a trinity and not see only a duality is baffling at most, IMO. If one reads this scripture and accepts how it is written relying only on “mans” interpretation and faith only, then I see one being commanded to believe in a "Duality", not a "Trinity." However Greek scholars are in agreement that the wording "The Word was God" or "the Word was divine" is the correct way to understand the last passage of John 1:1.~~ Cassi

Christians use John 1:1 to support the deity of the Father and Jesus Christ. The deity of the Holy Spirit is supported by many other scriptues. In addition there are other scriptures which support the deity of all three persons in the Trinity.~~Hooberus

John 1:1 which in my limited understanding is used by Christians to support the trinity and has always been one of the major factors for the belief system in organized religion. I did not mean to imply that John 1:1 was the only reason for the basis of that belief system.

Below please find how the trinity was explained to me and my understanding of the clauses.

If this is another religions understanding of the Trinity other then Christianity please forgive me for my error.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The three " a,b,c " clauses referred to in this scripture:

John 1:1 a "In the beginning was the Word,"
John 1:1 b "and the Word was with God,"
John 1:1 c "and the Word was God."

Thanks Nowisee for your kind thoughts. I am feeling so much better!

Hugs

Cassi

Cassiline

1:1 a

Cassiline

1:1a

onacruse

((Cassi)) Indeed, welcome back! I'd say that you jumping into a Trinity thread is a pretty good indication that you're recuperating nicely (or, maybe, that you need therapy? LOL) Please say Hi to MaxF, from Katie and me, eh?

As Dana & Mantey say, these are not simply grammatical issues, to be taken as a "verse-by-verse, proof-text" exegesis, but that "sometimes the writer's viewpoint is difficult to detect." In that respect, the development of Christology over the course of the 1st and 2nd centuries shows that there was considerable evolution of Christian thought about who and what Jesus was. The matter can only be decided in the context of everything those writers had to say, individually and collectively. Oscar Cullman in The Christology of the New Testament lays out a very interesting explanation of the historical and theological development of early Christian thought on Jesus as "prophet," as "suffering servant," as "high priest," "Messiah," "on of Man," "Lord," "Savior," "Word," and "Son of God." All these terms had their own special significance to the Jewish Christians, and yet again another set of meanings to the non-Jewish Christians.

Taken in that context, combined with all the NT passages about Christ's nature, it's clear that John 1:1 is best translated "the Word was God." It doesn't fully carry through on what "was God" means, but it's more accurate (or, shall we say, less misleading) than "a god" or "divine."

One analogy that I can relate too: Divide Infinity by 3 (or, by any number). The Infinity remains what it is (Infinite), and the parts are yet also themselves Infinite. (Abelian mathematics and group theory)

That's the unfathomable nature of Infinity.

nowisee, TY

Craig

chappy

Here is part of a later post I entered. Would my assumption (God=Panel) be correct?

It seems to me however that the witnesses misrepresent what trinitarians actually believe. I was always told that the trinity doctrine meant the belief that God and Christ were the same individual or entity. However this is what I think the trinity doctrine means: God is not a person or entity, but something akin to a panel of 3 judges, lets say Tom, Dick and Harriet. The panel = God, Tom = the Father (chief judge), Dick = the Son, Harriet = the Holy spirit. The panel (God) IS the group. In my mind this clears up the confusion about Christ praying to Himself. He was praying to another member of the panel(God), in this case Tom (the Father).
later,chappy

chappy

hooberus

Sorry, I have been away from here for a while. I'll try to post some answers shortly.

hooberus

Personal pronouns show that He is a person

"O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?" Micah 2:7

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." John 16:7-15

He can be blasphemed

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:31-32

He can be lied to

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

He calls

2: As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. Acts 13:2

He speaks

11: And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. Acts 21:11

He has a mind

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27

He has a will

11: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:11

He can be greived

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

He is God

3: But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:3-4

He is Lord

"Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Cirinthians 3:16-17

I will add more to this post more shortly.

nowisee

hooberus, i just found this. thank you.

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