Any Good People left in the Organization

by jst2laws 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  teejay

  There are hundreds of thousands of good people still in the Organization. Probably millions. By far the majority of all the JWs I ever knew were and are decent people... good as gold.

  Now that we have seen the truth, it's too easy for some of us to compare Dubs to average citizens in Nazi Germany. Yes, Dubs will overlook the wrongs of JW leaders and teaching, but so did we when we were members. We didn't suddenly become good people the day we walked out of the Kingdom Hall for the last time. We, like those who're still Dubs, were good people all along.
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  IslandWoman

  Teejay,

  Now that we have seen the truth, it's too easy for some of us to compare Dubs to average citizens in Nazi Germany. Yes, Dubs will overlook the wrongs of JW leaders and teaching, but so did we when we were members. We didn't suddenly become good people the day we walked out of the Kingdom Hall for the last time. We, like those who're still Dubs, were good people all along.

  Amen!

  IW
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  jst2laws

  Sherry,

  Go up this page to your empty post and click on your own name. On this page that comes up you will see your name "Sherry" again in a box in the left hand corner. Just below your name is a line that says "InBox" followed by you have "one new message". Click on that line and you will have a private message to read. OK!

  Steve
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  AlanF

  IslandWoman said:

  :: But a large fraction of them are not nearly so good as they would like to think. It's like the situation in Nazi Germany. A lot of decent Germans disliked some of what the Nazis were doing, but they went along anyway because they would have lost a lot by not going along.

  : In my opinion, this is an invalid comparison. We are talking religion here not politics.

  Actually we're talking about whether there are any good people left in the JW organization. Moreover, the Nazi's were essentially a religion.

  : One cannot be compared with the other.

  Of course they can. My point was that people in most any situation -- religious, political, whatever you care to name -- can be influenced or coerced to abandon their good principles in order to save themselves grief or to gain some advantage.

  : Ray Franz, Dunlap and others stayed even though they saw error and wrongs in their religion.

  Right. And plenty of Nazis stayed with their quasi-religious political cult even though they saw error and wrongs in it. And plenty of non-Nazi Germans failed to speak out when they saw that their government was doing horrendous things.

  : Many of us did. Are you saying we are all culpable? We are all like the Germans in Nazi Germany?

  Very much so. People are not very different around the world and in any number of situations. Plenty of people -- and I'm sure you're no exception -- saw plenty wrong with the JW religion, but we stayed. Why? Because leaving was harder than staying. Leaving entails the pain of lost relationships, possible shunning, figuring out a whole new lifestyle and perhaps finding a new religion. That's extremely hard work and terribly stressful. Many ex-JWs struggled for years with the tradeoffs, and only quit the religion when they found that it became harder to stay than to leave. Many thought about these things consciously. To the extent that we knew what we were doing when we made these tradeoffs, we're culpable. I made these tradeoffs several times before I finally quit, knowing that I was accepting something false because I didn't want to lose my family.

  AlanF
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  IslandWoman

  Hi Alan,

  I disagree!!!!

  Linda
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  asleif_dufansdottir

  There have to be good people who are still JWs, who doubt and then blame themselves for not being strong enough, who see the faults and flaws in the org and then beat themselves up for allowing 'human imperfection' to stumble them. The whole key to JW mind control is that all the problems are the individual's fault and all good things are attributed to the org.

  Sometimes it's a case of not being personally affected by the flaws of the org...ie, you 'just can't believe' that there is a pedophile problem until if affects you, you 'just can't believe' that truly repentant ones are df'd rather than lovingly helped until it's you or someone you're close to. You 'just can't believe' that someone would be baptised or made a MS when they were obviously not ready (still smoking occasionally in the first case - the female study conductor actually fought with the elders that the woman was not ready for baptism), until you see it happen to someone you know well, and are told your hall 'needs to get their numbers up' and they're going ahead with it.

  Sometimes it's a case of thinking 'it's just our congregation' (I've seen this in my old hall). People are convinced that the massive problems in their hall are just an abberration and that other halls are better, more like the picture the society paints of itself. If so-and-so wasn't PO...if this wasn't allowed, if that wasn't allowed...and if we just 'wait on Jehovah' he'll correct the problem. It's not that way in other halls...it can't be if it's the truth. Combined with the qualities I talked about in paragraph one, this can keep people in for years, struggling to blind themselves to problems they know exist. All the while, the WT is busy laying the guilt and mind control on as thick as possible. Those who move around may realize that it is that way everywhere...that the WT's press about itself is lies and half-truths.
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  jst2laws

  Alan,

  I figured this thread had been exhausted but could not let your comment go without bring this thought to the surface:

  Are you saying we are all culpable? We are all like the Germans in Nazi Germany?

  Very much so. People are not very different around the world and in any number of situations. Plenty of people -- and I'm sure you're no exception -- saw plenty wrong with the JW religion, but we stayed. Why? Because leaving was harder than staying. Leaving entails the pain of lost relationships, possible shunning, figuring out a whole new lifestyle and perhaps finding a new religion. That's extremely hard work and terribly stressful. Many ex-JWs struggled for years with the tradeoffs, and only quit the religion when they found that it became harder to stay than to leave. Many thought about these things consciously. To the extent that we knew what we were doing when we made these tradeoffs, we're culpable. I made these tradeoffs several times before I finally quit, knowing that I was accepting something false because I didn't want to lose my family.

  The comment that we all saw problems but "leaving was harder than staying" is a profound statement that describes us all at some level. We are here only because eventually STAYING BECAME HARDER THAN LEAVING.

  That is me. I faced that pain at different levels for over 20 years until the pain of staying was unbearable and the GREAT PAIN of leaving was finally an option.

  For anyone still hanging on I can assure you that you will not get well until you face the pain. Like nausea that will not go away until you empty your stomack, you will not feel better until you decide to rid yourself of the discomfort by facing the pain and puking your guts out.

  Once it is over you feel SO MUCH BETTER.

  Jst2laws
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  Pistoff

  blueblades:

  Dan Kalistead has not attended meetings for years. He moved to CA many years ago.
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  teejay

  Plenty of people -- and I'm sure you're no exception -- saw plenty wrong with the JW religion, but we stayed [because] leaving was harder than staying. Many ex-JWs struggled for years with the tradeoffs, and only quit the religion when they found that it became harder to stay than to leave. Many thought about these things consciously. To the extent that we knew what we were doing when we made these tradeoffs, we're culpable. -- AlanF

  There are those who regularly post to this board – people who know as well as anyone the falsehoods that are spouted at every meeting – who continue to spend two to five hours at the Kingdom Hall. Whether it's because they want to maintain relationships with aged parents; or because they want to stay in a position where they can support their children; or because they're not willing at this time to face the shunning process—whatever the reason—they continue to attend the meetings. Does their decision to attend of itself make them "bad" people?

  Those who are now ex-JWs openly admit to having made tradeoffs back then, perhaps for years. Like so many others, we had been seduced by the hopes of a better time, seduced by the idea that we were special. We were among the very few on earth that Jehovah God himself had chosen to reveal his distinctive truths. We (and maybe others of our close family) were part of a unique brotherhood. Coming to grips with the falsehood of all of this takes time and, even as that realization became irrefutable, the critical question THEN arose: "What do I do now?"

  Attempting to compare the people who at that point stay to complicit citizens in Nazi Germany is way over the line, unnecessarily harsh, IMO. People aren't being burned to death at Kingdom Halls, with evidence of it settling down on attenders like so much ash. What kept us there (before and after our moment of truth) is no doubt the same thing that keeps others there now. As was our experience, their decision to stay may simply be that they don't want to lose their family and are willing – for now – to suffer the discomfort of going to the mtgs. For the time being, leaving is not an option, and they should not be demonized, for any reason, as "bad" people.

  We have seen the light of truth about the wts, but that in no way confers on us some moral authority. We are no better just because we no longer go to the KH.
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  Room 215

  Sure there are lots of fine, decent people in the ranks of the JWs at all levels of involvement; but disaffection is seldom instantaneous but rather proceeds in stages..

  One's mental process often proceeds from (1) ``This is God's organization beyond a doubt" to (2) ``God's truth is perfect but is represented on earth by sincere but imperfect humans" to (3) ``Ours is a `problem congregation' and that's beause our elders either misunderstand t he Society's counsel but don't apply what they've been taught." to (4) ``Sure, chronology is fascinating and important -- after all, those arcane passages in Revelation, Ezekiel, etc. have to mean SOMETHING and the Society has at least as much right as anyone else to suggest an interpretation; but it's pure doctrine -- no hellfire, soul sleep, paradise earth -- that really matters" to (5) ``What's this that Dateline, Panorama, etc. has been saying? What is an NGO and how does that relate to the Society? What's an Amicus Curiae and what's this about teh WTBTS siding with that huckster Swaggart?"