Wouldn't it be the case that mapping the location and state of every atom that has ever existed require more energy than exists in the universe itself?
Why the resurrection must be true
by slimboyfat 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Sanchy
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never a jw
Threads like these make me appreciate my mundane existence even more. Bring me coffee and bread. Pure joy! ...without the mental effort
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slimboyfat
Isn't it the case that energy and matter are interchangeable and cannot be destroyed? The phraseology "require more energy than exists in the universe" seems to imply that once energy has been used to accomplish a function it is thereafter lost. But that is not how it works as I understand it. After energy accomplishes something it still exists at the end of the process, just in a different form. So maybe it is imossible to process the information concerning the whole universe all at once, but parts of it can be processed successively, until it is all quantified.
Plus as more and more of the universe is given over to processes which involve understanding itself (consciousness) we will realise we are reaching a point where the universe itself is destined to be self-aware, not merely beings within it. This super consciousness, as it expands and advances, will necessarily involve all consciousness that exists and has ever existed. So the part of the universe that is the subject expands and the part that is the object shrinks, to the point where the universe is pure consciousness. Necessarily involving the consciousness of all beings that have ever existed. This is a basic argument for panpsychism. I have until now assumed that conscious beings are discrete entities and matter is easily divided between conscious and unconscious, but these are not safe assumptions
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waton
you simply need to wait longer until it becomes feasible.
The longer you wait, the more distant into the past, the more diluted any information gets. unless the resurrection mechanism is somehow already build into the universe from the beginning, in any case never a jw's option is very appealing.
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Vidiot
When I'm in a somewhat vindictive mood, I fantasize about some future technology that actually can recreate virtual clones of long-dead people...
...and then "resurrecting" all the worst WT leaders and forcing them to see how mind-f**kingly wrong they turned out to be. :angry:
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slimboyfat
The longer you wait, the more distant into the past, the more diluted any information gets.
Processes of information retrieval that are already feasible show that the rate of recovery is much quicker than degradation. For example the continents are still changing position, But the science of plate tectonics advances so quickly that the information "lost" between the development of techniques to trace the past movement of the continents is so negligible as to be non-existent.
DNA is also subject to degradation over time, but advances in technology are so much quicker than the loss of information that old murders can be solved, and the de-extinction of long dead species is now considered feasible.
If such seeming science fiction examples of information retrieval is possible, even today. Then it would seem to follow that, given enough progress, the material composition of the universe itself will inevitably be quantified. At which point, if the materialist conception of reality is correct, not only is resurrection feasible, it is inevitable.
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Sanchy
The phraseology "require more energy than exists in the universe" seems to imply that once energy has been used to accomplish a function it is thereafter lost. But that is not how it works as I understand it.
Well I was thinking more in line of one needing at least a few atoms within a storage system just to map the location of a separate single atom. Now multiply that by all the atoms in the universe times every fraction of a second in time and you'd quickly run out of storage space, or energy, since you'd need more than exists in the entire universe.
That is of course unless the existence of the universe as a whole was procedural and could be described mathematically with formulas that describe where all elementary particles were, are and will be.
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slimboyfat
...and then "resurrecting" all the worst WT leaders and forcing them to see how mind-f**kingly wrong they turned out to be.
In this scenario the WT leader has been resurrected into a world in which human civilisation is so advanced that presumably, not only has he been resurrected, but problems of illness, scarcity, and even death have been conquered. And in this scenario you will inform him that he was wrong about the future? Ironically, don't you think he might turn around and tell you he was right!
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OneEyedJoe
Assmuption 1. If reality consists of material and nothing else then who we are and our consciousness arises purely from the order of the material substance of our bodies - primarily our brains. There is no spirit or soul involved.
With ya so far.
Assumption 2. Since the material substance of the universe obeys consistent laws, the position and configuration of material in the universe at any given point in time could, in principle, be extrapolated from the position and trajectory of the material substance of the universe at any other given time.
There is a fairly decent chance that this assumption is not consistent with our universe. Things like black holes may actually destroy the ability to extrapolate back in time as mater that enters them can no longer causally affect matter that is outside of them. There are some possible solutions to this "information paradox" but it is not yet clear if information is actually destroyed (from our perspective) when something enters a black hole.
Furthermore, due to the uncertainties in quantum mechanics, our universe is not deterministic. At best we could calculate the probabilities of certain events happening (or having happened, if we're extrapolating backwards) but we could not with perfect certainty reconstruct the past position and momentum of any particle based on having seen it at a future time.
Assumption 3. Over time humans (or intelligent beings generally) accumulate information about the universe, its content and laws. If this accumulation continues indefinitely it will inevitably reach a point where the material composition of the universe is known exhaustively, not simply for one point in time, but for all time. Just as geologists are now able to create maps of how the continents were configured millions of years ago by extrapolating continental movement according to physical laws, future scientists will be able to map out the exact composition of all matter at all previous points in time according to physical laws.
The assumption that we will continue to accumulate information is probably pretty good, but extending that to assume that we'd have all information after an infinite period of time does not hold. It's perhaps counter-intuitive to people that aren't used to dealing with infinity (and the various cardinalities thereof) but gaining knowledge indefinitely does not imply that all knowledge will at some point be gained. Furthermore, the assumption that we will continue gaining knowledge "indefinitely" is false because the universe will inevitably suffer heat death at which point no intelligence will be able to exist and, indeed, nothing will be able to happen. But don't worry, all civilizations will be long gone well before even that happens.
Assumptions 4. A civilisation or intelligence which has been able to exhaustively map the material composition and configuration of the universe over all of time will also be in a position to recreate entities including people from the past by recreating their exact material condition.
It seems that the assumption here (as most of this follows from your above assumptions) is that the technology to recreate, exactly, a given thing based on knowing precisely how it was structured. Again, due to quantum effects, this is probably impossible.
Assumption 5. Humans of each generation will be suficciently attached to their parents and immediate ancestors to insist they are brought back to life when it becomes feasible to do so.
This is a terrible assumption. I'm certain that a reasonably large percentage of the population does not have nostalgic views of their parents to bother recreating them. Even of those that would have this attachment, I expect many would opt not to recreate the person only to watch them die again, as they inevitably would.
If all of these assumptions are true, it seems to me that a general resurrection at some point is not just likely but pretty inevitable. Which is a ridiculous thing to say. But it seems to follow from the assumptions. And each of the assumptions as they stand seem quite reasonable.
1/5 of your assumptions is reasonable. There's no logic in expecting a resurrection of any kind.
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Vidiot
slimboyfat - "In this scenario the WT leader has been resurrected into a world in which human civilization is so advanced that presumably, not only has he been resurrected, but problems of illness, scarcity, and even death have been conquered. And in this scenario you will inform him that he was wrong about the future? Ironically, don't you think he might turn around and tell you he was right!"
I think the point would be that it was accomplished in "This Old System" by human efforts, rather than via miraculous intervention in the (nonexistent) WT "paradise" (with no global apocalypse), and that all their special expectations were for nothing, particularly if the WTS no longer existed.
