by Abaddon 85 Replies latest social current
Gitsa,
They are NOT POW's, they are battlefield detainees and NOT legal combatants as defined by the Geneva Convention. I'm not saying any tribunals have started, I'm saying WE JUST DON'T KNOW. These nuts can be held until the end of hostilities without any trial. Since we're still fighting in Afghanistan, and the war on Terror will last a generation, these guys aren't going anywhere soon. Nor are they being treated bad, again WHAT is the specific complaint about their treatment?
What a load of crap!
Battlefield detainees?
Prisoners of war in any other language!
Just changing the name doesn't change their status.
The Geneva Convention defines Prisoner of War, these guys don't meet it. Why do you have such a problem with this?
Explain why they don't meet it please....
They are NOT POW's, they are battlefield detainees and NOT legal combatants as defined by the Geneva Convention.
Yerusalyim: You may believe this. You may accept this. You may turn a blind eye to this. Whatever.
The fact is, many people around the world can see the gross hypocrisy of this and it comes across as a very, very cheap trick to excuse oneself of the obligations of the geneva convention. This convention is there for a reason and flouting it like this is unacceptable. It is sullying America's reputation and serves to feed any fanatics who want to recruit terrorists. If this is what 'waging war on terrorism' means then I'm afraid you have to wake up as I can tell you right now - you have lost, you are not going to win it doing this.
Some of the people being detained are minors (under 16) and are described as unlawful combatants so they do not get afforded any rights as they should.
As for them all being 'out to get any Americans' ... the USA also claims that some of these minors were pressured into fighting which begs the question why keep them detained?
Perhaps you would like to stand guard yourself in
Ho, that’s an irrelevant comment and pure evasion. It does not address the human rights issue. You might not want those people to have human rights, and you might find it acceptable for them to be held in conditions that would violate the ’s own Constitution if it took place on soil. Others do not, and others see the double standard that the ’s government are displaying.
I may not know all the details of this camp, …
Ah! So you know what you’re talking about and are making an informed comment? Or just reacting with a nationalistic knee jerk without knowing the details?
… however I do believe the most of the Islamic prisoners there would kill me, my family, or anyone I know just to prove their point because I happen to be from the .
Yes Ho, but serial killers would kill you, your family, or anyone you knew just because they are serial killers, and serial killers are afforded human rights and Constitutional protections. The prisoners in bay have no such protection. Unless you are willing to state categorically that they do not deserve such rights (which, as you don’t know all the details would be unwise), I find it hard to see what justification the USA’s government has for their actions when they would rain fire on anyone who treated USA nationals in the same fashion. The was up in arms when am American kid was canned for vandalism in a few years back. Double standard me thinks, what do you think?
Do you know of any reasonable short term with long term lasting affects solutions to such a delima for me, my family, any one I know, or anyone els from the US? I don't, but would like to here something.
Let them be tried in exactly the same way that the American citizen arrested for trying to shoe bomb a plane was, and sentenced in the same way.
Once one government ignores international standards and takes advantage of judicial loopholes to hold prisoners in a no-mans land under conditions that violate the detaining countries own laws, it sets a precedent and destroys trust and respect for that country.
Yeru;
For the love of Peter Paul and Mary, what propoganda.
And what was Powell’s performance at the UN?
Using terms like "death camp" to evoke an emotional response.
Yeah, I hate that, like using ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction’ to evoke an emotional response.
The Concentration camps in and were "Death Camps" Guantanemo is not being converted to a "death camp" but a permenant prison at which criminals may be executed.
I would love for you to go there and explain the difference to them. That might cut through the tide of propaganda and double think, and would certainly be informative viewing.
Do we call the Death Row Prisons in the "death camps" No, not at all.
No, they are tried in a court of law, not a military court, they have rights that cannot be denied them legally, whereas the prisoners only have the rights that the sees fit to give them. If you can draw parallels between those two you have no knowledge of geometry, let alone ethics.
I have no problem what so ever with the treatment of the terrorists in Guantanemo, they are NOT prisoners of war, they are terrorists.
So you’re happy with legalistic loopholes that would not be allowed on US soil being taken apart of? Don’t you think this opens the for charges of being dishonest and hypocritical? And many of these terrorists were strictly speaking paramilitaries when they were captured, making their identification as terrorists tenuous; most countries feel they should be treated as POWs… but of course, your country, right or wrong…
The military Tribunals that will try them are a lot more fair than the judicial systems of most of the countries these nut cases come from.
Irrelevant and there are no real protections to stop mistrials in . The is affording its own citizens charged with terrorism (like ) different treatment. The same crime should have the same penalty.
“… and full of Anti-American tripe…. “
Yay!!!! Rather than rebutting the argument by showing the statements are untrue, Yeru describes it as, amongst other things, Anti-American. Now why would anyone want to be anti a country that has double standards in dishing out justice? That holds people off its own soil in conditions that would be illegal on its own soil? That ignores the opinion of most countries that such behaviour is wrong? HOW COULD ANYONE POSSIBLY BE ANTI-AMERICAN IN THE FACE OF SUCH A SHINING EXAMPLE OF TRUTH, JUSTICE, AND THE ? Who else rejects statements because they are anti-something, rather than addressing the statements themselves?
As to the Iraqi prisoners of war, well over half of those taken prisoner have been released. Sure, the government should make them available to the Red Cross...AFTER the prisoners have been debriefed.
Could you quote me which part of the Geneva Convention that is in? Seriously, it’s nice you make statements like ‘the government should make them available to the Red Cross’, but I don’t know if you’re giving opinion about the debriefing or quoting the Geneva Convention.
Your answer to FunkyD shows contempt for the principles of innocent until proven guilty. I hope you never run into a situation where someone shows contempt for your presumption of innocence. Fortunately for you, you have protections. Unfortunately the prisoners in have none.
And you still haven’t answered my question on anther thread regarding your feelings about the supporting terrorist activity, revolution and insurgents, or the financial aid US citizens gave the IRA before terrorism became untrendy in the .
The big problem I have with Guantanamo is: how many people at Guantanamo are innocent?
Dozens of the detainees are Afghan and Pakistani nationals described in classified intelligence reports as farmers, taxi drivers, cobblers and laborers. Some were low-level fighters conscripted by the Taliban in the weeks before the collapse of the ruling Afghan regime.
None of the 59 met U.S. screening criteria for determining which prisoners should be sent to Guantanamo Bay, military sources said. But all were transferred anyway, sources said, for reasons that continue to baffle and frustrate intelligence officers nearly a year after the first group of detainees arrived at the facility."There are a lot of guilty [people] in there," said one officer, "but there's a lot of farmers in there too."
Others were grabbed by Pakistani soldiers patrolling the Afghan border who collected bounties for prisoners, sources said. One such prisoner was captured at a restaurant near the border where he claimed to have lived and worked for 20 years.
http://www.latimes.com/la-na-gitmo22dec22011424,0,4293848.story (the link doesn't work anymore--not sure where it went)
http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/13848/1.html
So innocent people were turned in by Pakistani soldiers for $$$$, were turned in by the afghans in an effort to prove themselves to the americans, etc...
"We're basically condemning these guys to long-term imprisonment," said a military official who was a senior interrogator at Guantanamo Bay.
"If they weren't terrorists before, they certainly could be now."
These articles are roughly 6 months old and some innocent ones there have been released (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2371349.stm) but I have to wonder how many innocent are there rotting away, STILL not charged with any crime?
I'll tell you this much; if this business of tribunal trials and executions goes ahead, the UK populace will wash it's hands of further approval of military assistance to the US.
Trial by Jury is endemic to civilisation. So is an end to executions. The US had phenomenal support extended to it after 9/11, however, no longer will a blind eye be turned to that part of the American Judiciary that is so abhorred by many countries if this nasty business goes ahead.
Englishman.
January 25, 2002
Much Ado About Nothing at Camp X-Ray By Tom Bevan
Sometimes it's difficult to tell what will send some people into hysterics. This week, it was the release of a series of photographs by the Department of Defense showing the al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners being held at Camp X-Ray with their hands shackled, kneeling on "rocky earth." Criticism came quickly from the usual suspects: European government representatives, human rights organizations, and a cadre of American leftists who filed law suits against the U.S. government.
The International Committee of the Red Cross, in particular, went into a snit over the pictures, claiming that they violate the 1949 Geneva Convention on treatment of prisoners of war by making the al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners a "public curiosity."
"Such pictures should not be disseminated," huffed Darcy Christen of the ICRC, "They could have a strong impact on the family and the Muslim community worldwide." Hmmm. Does Ms. Christen mean something like the impact those pictures of the burning World Trade Center had (and still have) on the vicitims' families? And let's hope the pitctures from Camp X-Ray do send a message to the Muslim community around the world: terrorists and those who support them will be brought to justice by the United States and its allies.
Still, despite all of the grousing about whether the prisoners fall under the Geneva Convention or not, the question is simple: are they being treated humanely? The answer is an emphatic 'yes.'
On Tuesday, the Times of London reported that prisoners at Camp X-Ray are getting bagels and cream cheese for breakfast, daily medical checks, prayers broadcast over the PA system, as much water as they desire, and will receive free copies of the Koran. Also on Tuesday the Washington Post reported that a US Navy Muslim chaplain will be dispatched to Cuba to "minister to the religious needs of al-Qaeda and Taliban detainees." I'm sure most Americans would not be thrilled to know that their tax dollars are being shelled out so that al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners can bone up on the religious views that made them conspirators in the worst terrorist attack in history.
Not to be too blithe, but isn't there a volcano erupting somewhere causing massive tragedy that would be a better use of the ICRC's time? Aren't Christians and dissidents being jailed all over China in conditions infinitely worse than those at Guantanemo Bay? This is not to say that the US should be above scrutiny, but it's clear that the prisoners at Camp X-Ray are being treated humanely and with respect. Some could even argue the prisoners are being treated with too much respect. No one can dispute the fact that the prisoners are enjoying a much better standard of living than they did in Afghanistan.
Once again, however, we find the 'international community' and American leftists rushing headlong to protect the the 'rights' of the worst humanity has to offer. This torrent of outrage erupted over 'perceived abuses' created by a few photographs, not by a sober investigation of the true conditions of Camp X-Ray and its inhabitants. Don't be fooled, this is not about human rights. If any other country were running Camp X-Ray not a word would be said. This is about those who oppose the War on Terror (and who are beside themselves over its early success) looking for something to pin on the Bush administration.
Let's remember that America, always held to the highest standard on the planet, has an impeccable human rights record unmatched by any other country. Remember also that those who tut-tut America's treatment of prisoners at Camp X-Ray display a worldview that is so farfetched and so naive as to insult the integrity and compassion of the American people. Just ask the families of those who died on September 11.
Tom Bevan writes for RealClearPolitics
Let's remember that America, always held to the highest standard on the planet, has an impeccable human rights record unmatched by any other country. Remember also that those who tut-tut America's treatment of prisoners at Camp X-Ray display a worldview that is so farfetched and so naive as to insult the integrity and compassion of the American people. Just ask the families of those who died on September
Can't feed off that forever. How many Americans contributed to Noraid and helped the IRA bomb and kill the British for 30 years? A bloody lot, I can tell you!
This is virtually the US's first taste of terrorism on it's home ground. We've had it for years. We still don't try people without a jury and we don't kill 'em if found guilty either, so don't expect too much empathy over this one.
Englishman.
