Douglas Walsh Trial Testimony

by waiting 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • waiting
    waiting

    Friend,

    Romans 16:17-18, I urge you, brothers and sisters, to keep an eye on those who cause dissensions and offenses, in opposition to the teaching that you have learned; avoid them. For such people do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetities, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. NIV

    Assuming that statement is correct—and I think that it is—how would Romans 16:17 apply if an early Christian had made such an issue against one of those erroneous teachings that it caused divisions among their Christian brothers?

    I added verse 18 because it shows the intent of those causing division - their own appetites (perhaps their egos?). If, as in the case of circumcision, there was a major dispute, those brothers were free to disagree with each other, even to the point of arguments, as the Bible states. These were not egos, these brothers were not trying to entice others to follow them - these were arguments on the Bible ethics and teachings.

    A blanket statement of "caused divisions" is inadequate. As seen from Romans 16:18, there can be different reasons for divisions, and BTW, not all discussion, even arguments, can be termed divisions (as seen by the settlement of the circumcision arguement).

    Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he, to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed instructions issued in the "Watchtower" or the "Informant" or "Awake"?

    A. He must accept those.

    Fred Franz's testimony

    The first century Christians were allowed to disagree with each other and stay within the congregation. It was the intentions of persons that were causing divisions that was questionable - not the discussions/disagreements.

    The WTBTS, in my opinion, is not open to discussion or disagreements - no matter what the intentions. They physically banish the perceived independent thinker from among them - even if the thinker is found later correct, just before the WTBTS admitted it. According to Fred Franz - that's the way it has to be.

    Gotta squash them independent thinkers for the sake of unity.

    Edited by - waiting on 7 July 2000 23:9:41

  • Friend
    Friend

    waiting

    I believe the following statement by you is at the heart of our discussion. You said,

    The first century Christians were allowed to disagree with each other and stay within the congregation. It was the intentions of persons that were causing divisions that was questionable - not the discussions/disagreements.

    I agree with what you said on that point. The problem is that a measure of disagreement is also tolerated amongst fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Society admits as much by admitting that some in our midst hold divergent views or may offer suggestions for changing a doctrine or doctrines. Therefore your answer has eluded the material point related to our discussion here. Let me offer another question for clarification and your consideration. Remember what we are looking for here, that is how the text of Romans 16 might be applied.

    According to the Bible one particularly bad and erroneous teaching circulating among the first century Christians was that the apostle John would not die. We know now that that teaching was false, there is no question about it. During the days of the apostle Paul—when that false teaching was reportedly still in circulation—had an individual Christian made such a stink over that issue that it began dividing Christians from one another and their cooperative work of preaching the gospel, would the text of Romans 16 have had any application in that case? What do you think?

    Friend

  • waiting
    waiting

    Friend,

    What do you think?

    You know you drive me crazy, don't you?

    One of the proofs of the divinity of our gospel is that it has survived preaching. Woodrow Wilson

    It has been years since I have actually looked up scriptures and tried to get a meaning out of them, much less actually discussed them. It's so much easier when the Watchtower articles just tell you how to apply them.

    I'm not "simple-minded" - just haven't used this portion of my mind for a very long time.

    I will try to form an answer tomorrow. 'Night.

    waiting

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Friend:

    While there are a couple of lines in the WT articles that say we can offer a suggestion, or perhaps think slightly differently (usually on matters of conscience) we both know how this works out in reality.

    - a Witness can write in and offer a suggestion, and after that he must simply leave the matter at that.

    - a Witness will be compelled to bring his thinking in line into what is presently taught by the Society, and not encouraged to stand his ground if he believes his understanding is in closer harmony with Scripture. A divergent thought is always considered to be in error where it deviates from the Society.

    - A Witness could not publicly state (ie. door to door or congregation) that he diagrees with certain parts of the message. He could be required to distribute and teach things he does not concientiously agree with. That is dishonest.

    - A person cannot get baptized if he does not say yes to the 2 questions or has reservations about a quantity of the questions in the OM book.

    These are just some things off the top of my head. I could come up with more. I'd also have no problem coming up with articles condemning "independent thinking".

    a measure of disagreement is also tolerated amongst fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Society admits as much by admitting that some in our midst hold divergent views or may offer suggestions for changing a doctrine or doctrines.

    The amount of tolerance for holding divergent views is so small that it makes an inquisition look good. I've learned the hard way that to fit in you must keep any divergent views to yourself. (Why do you think Witnet now has a "controversial" forum. Try dropping a divergent thought over at Witnessesonline)

    Every change of something from a disfellowshipping matter to a conscience one clearly shows that they were teaching as doctrine what was a command of men. People were kicked out and stripped of their dignity for following their conscience in other words. This is horribly wrong.

    Unity in organizational teaching/directives is thus put above unity in Christian thought/principles and above the Bible.

    Path

  • Zep
    Zep

    Waiting:I would like to see other people's thoughts on the thought of total mind obedience to the WTBTS as stated by Fred Franz.

    Well waiting i guess you sure cant apply luke 21:14-16 to Freds testimony eh!.He made himself look stupid, plain and simple!!!.I think his words speak for themselves.Freds talking out his A**!

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    I think alot of Witnesses would be somewhat awakened by his testimony. Such ashame that most would not even believe such an exchange ever took place in a courtroom.

    Path

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Zep and Path,

    When I posted this, Friend made another good discussion point promptly. Both are good discussions. I left this thread to be opened with Friend's scriptural thoughts - and moved the Douglas Walsh Trial Testtimony to another thread with a "II" behind it.

    I would enjoy discussing the implications of total mind obedience specified by Franz and Covington - under oath. I think it's fascinating what people say under oath - when they're made to talk. Come on over to the other thread and let's talk? I have been enjoying this thread also.

    I didn't know you could write with so many full sentences, Zep

    Path, I have been enjoying responding to your thoughts here and other threads, if I've offended I didn't mean to...."touchy subjects," I guess.

    waiting

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    You are quite the person Waiting. And I'm not easily offended. It takes many different persons and personalities and viewpoints to make DBs work.

    Path

  • Friend
    Friend

    Pathofthorns

    While there are a couple of lines in the WT articles that say we can offer a suggestion, or perhaps think slightly differently (usually on matters of conscience) we both know how this works out in reality.

    I would argue that the Society’s publications are laced with suggestions that not all Witnesses see some serious issues identically. I would also differ in that I feel the Society has on numerous occasions admitted in rather explicit ways that some Witnesses hold divergent views from the WTS. As for reality, reality is that in casual conversation Witnesses will confess to their closest Witness friends a host of disagreements with the Society. It is not unusual at all for two or more elders to sit and speak together casually about some divergent view that one or more of them hold to.

    - a Witness can write in and offer a suggestion, and after that he must simply leave the matter at that.

    I have argued often that the Society should increase its tolerance for divergent thought amongst JWs. On the other hand, the Society’s intolerance is not as confining as you portray it. Commonly those who write with suggested changes will over a period of time write numerous follow-up letters on whatever their subject is. The thing the Society is really concerned about is that the individual not create division among the brothers over whatever the issue is.

    - a Witness will be compelled to bring his thinking in line into what is presently taught by the Society, and not encouraged to stand his ground if he believes his understanding is in closer harmony with Scripture. A divergent thought is always considered to be in error where it deviates from the Society.

    It is true that Witnesses are not typically encouraged to stand their ground regarding some divergent notion. On the other hand, the Society does not necessarily force an individual to bring his or her thinking into total and absolute agreement with the WTS either. Again, the Society’s primary concern is that discord is not sown over the issue.

    Also, a divergent thought is not necessarily dismissed as error either. If that were so then the Society would not be known for the very thing they are known for, namely change.

    - A Witness could not publicly state (ie. door to door or congregation) that he disagrees with certain parts of the message. He could be required to distribute and teach things he does not conscientiously agree with. That is dishonest.

    No one is required to distribute or teach anything they disagree with. Frankly, one of the reasons more Bible studies are not conducted is because many publishers are troubled by some teachings and therefore find themselves unable to teach them. Instead, if they remain publishers, they focus their work on distributing material that is consistent with their conscience. A number of these publishers have bravely shared their dilemma with the Society.

    As for stating specific divergent thoughts from the KH platform or in the formal door-to-door work, yes, the Society would probably view that as sowing discord and would most likely advise local elders to stop such actions at once, at least as coming from a recognized congregation publisher.

    - A person cannot get baptized if he does not say yes to the 2 questions or has reservations about a quantity of the questions in the OM book.

    That is true but also neither here nor there regarding our discussion. Those persons are veritable infants when it comes to details of what the Society teaches on many subjects. Over time they will come to have questions of their own and probably some objections too. It is at that point that the Society’s tolerance or intolerance becomes an issue. Prior to baptism an individual can just decide not to join. With the exception of JW children that choice is no big deal. In the case of JW children they are better off questioning things in advance rather than down the road.

    These are just some things off the top of my head. I could come up with more. I'd also have no problem coming up with articles condemning "independent thinking".

    As for independent thinking, here is more information about that subject. There is more than one perspective on that subject. You might try the following link. [url= http://discussion.witnesses.net/Forum67/HTML/000013.html]Freedom Of Thought and Expression[/url]

    The amount of tolerance for holding divergent views is so small that it makes an inquisition look good. I've learned the hard way that to fit in you must keep any divergent views to yourself. (Why do you think Witnet now has a "controversial" forum. Try dropping a divergent thought over at Witnessesonline)

    I do not agree with the current level of tolerance amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses as induced by the Society, neither do I agree that the current level of tolerance is anywhere near the stifling effects of the inquisition period.

    Every change of something from a disfellowshipping matter to a conscience one clearly shows that they were teaching as doctrine what was a command of men. People were kicked out and stripped of their dignity for following their conscience in other words. This is horribly wrong.

    That somewhat gets us back to the heart of possible applications of Romans 16:17. Do you think it is possible to be correct about an issue and still cause more damage than good by the manner in which we introduce or circulate that idea? I think that question has merit and is to some degree a necessary one in light of the text of Romans 16:17. What do you think?

    Friend

  • SolidSender
    SolidSender

    Friend, you've obviously learnt a thing or two from the WTBTS about hiding negative facts, the following is from the Merriam-Webster as quoted from by yourself:

    Main Entry: learnt
    Pronunciation: 'l&rnt
    chiefly past participle of LEARN -SolidSender

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