interesting!!!

by free will 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

free will

MOSCOW--On May 22 the Golovinsky District Court ordered the Russian government to pay for a philological-psycho/linguistic expert study to be conducted on the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses published in the past ten years. "This is nothing more than a determination to find experts who will support a ban on Jehovah's Witnesses," stated Artur Leontyev, defense attorney.

good for moscow!!!!!!!!!
Faraon

MOSCOW--On May 22 the Golovinsky District Court ordered the Russian government to pay for a philological-psycho/linguistic expert study to be conducted on the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses published in the past ten years. "This is nothing more than a determination to find experts who will support a ban on Jehovah's Witnesses," stated Artur Leontyev, defense attorney.
Do you have a link for this?
A question that arises is why they would limit this to the last ten years.
Another would be which literature will be included, and statements in their meetings, which sometimes are more revealing than their written comentaries.
hippikon

Do they need any help !

blondie

Here's the WTS Public Information Release

For Immediate Release
May 23, 2003

Moscow Court orders fourth "expert study"

MOSCOW—On May 22, the Golovinsky District Court ordered the Russian government to pay for a philological-psycho/linguistic expert study to be conducted on the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses published in the past ten years.

The study will be carried out by The Institute of the Russian Language of the Russian Academy of Sciences, and one psycho-linguist, Konstantin Igoryevich Alekseyev. Judge Vera Dubinskaya did not set a time limit for the study.

"This is nothing more than a determination to find experts who will support a ban on Jehovah's Witnesses," stated Artur Leontyev, defense attorney. "There has been expert study upon expert study since 1996 in the effort to refute key charges in this trial. This new attempt will only further draw out this harassment of Jehovah's Witnesses in the courts. The last time an expert study was appointed in April 2002, a ten-month delay resulted."

One sociological study entitled The Family and the Bible, conducted by A.I. Antonov, head of the Department of Family Sociology at the Lomonsov Moscow State University, established that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses "plays an important role in strengthening the institute of the family." In particular it shows a divorce rate among Jehovah's Witnesses of less than 5 percent compared with 40 percent among the general population of Moscow. The study also revealed a much higher level of education among Jehovah's Witnesses (when compared with that of the average Muscovite), which tends toward independent rational thinking and decision-making. "Tolerant attitudes and conduct improve the longer a person is a Witness," said Professor Antonov.

Jehovah's Witnesses are registered in 399 communities in 72 regions throughout the Russian Federation. In November 2002 an appeal court in Chelyabinsk ruled that the rights of Jehovah's Witnesses to be registered as a legal entity were protected under the Russian Constitution and the European Convention. Moscow remains the exception to re-registration under the 1997 religion law.

There are now over 130,000 active Witnesses in Russia, and this year 282,433 persons attended the commemoration of the death of Christ.

Local contact: Vasilii Kalin
Telephone: +7 (902) 680-17-79
E-mail: [email protected]
Address of the Golovinsky Intermunicipal District Court:
ul. Zoi i Aleksandra Kosmodem'yanskikh, 31/2, Moscow
English-speaking contact, Paul Gillies, mobile telephone: +(44) 07775 833880

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seedy3

The study also revealed a much higher level of education among Jehovah's Witnesses (when compared with that of the average Muscovite), which tends toward independent rational thinking and decision-making.

Hmm who the heck did this study??. I guess they never read the WTS view on higher education, although it is more relaxed now, but when I was of the college going age (right out of High School) it was almost a DF'ing notice.
Seedy
NeonMadman

good for moscow!!!!!!!!!

I hope that remark doesn't mean what I think it does. It would be truly ironic if a poster named "free will" actually supported the government banning a religion with which he/she doesn't agree.
Look, I dislike the Watchtower as much as anyone, and I think the things they do are reprehensible. But the way to fight them is not by restricting freedom of religion, because that "solution" can quickly be extended to all faiths. If you'll recall, that was the case in Russia not so very long ago. It wasn't just JW's who suffered there, it was all believers in all religions!
Even if the JW's were banned again in Russia, it wouldn't free anyone from the Watchtower's grip. The Russian JW's would just see it as more "persecution" and would once again hunker down to do their work underground.
No, the way to fight the Watchtower is the same there as it is here - expose them! Expose their lies, hypocrisy, unscriptural teachings and false prophecy. Help JW's to start thinking for themselves. Expecting governments to act against false religions is a dangerous row to hoe; all to quickly, everyone's freedoms can be lost.
Faraon

I hope that remark doesn't mean what I think it does. It would be truly ironic if a poster named "free will" actually supported the government banning a religion with which he/she doesn't agree.

I support Russia’s decision to check up on destructive cults. Human rights advocates should take the stand against those who abuse people and control them mentally. JWs claim to have obtained enhanced freedoms for people, but keep their own people in chains. A cult should be automatically banned once it curtails its members from having the same liberties that a nation at large has or is responsible for deaths through neglect.
The majority of attorneys in America also do not get the point that in a divorce court against a cult, it is not about religion, but about the physical and mental welfare of a child that is in the balance. I am not against their religious beliefs, they can keep on worshipping their mythical Jewish god of war, or worship a chair. The problem begins when those beliefs work against the physical and mental health of the citizens of a country, and destroy the family bonds. Would you support a religion that kills and burns other human beings just because it is a religion? I am an agnostic, yet Catholics, Buddhists, Baptists, and others do not order the shunning of their own relatives, or let them die because of a blood transfusion.
Look, I dislike the Watchtower as much as anyone, and I think the things they do are reprehensible. But the way to fight them is not by restricting freedom of religion, because that "solution" can quickly be extended to all faiths. If you'll recall, that was the case in Russia not so very long ago. It wasn't just JW's who suffered there, it was all believers in all religions!

This order was to pay for a philological-psycho/linguistic expert study to be conducted on the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses published in the past ten years. I support this. I wish more governments had the guts to follow suit. I agree that best way do it would be to educate the public. Make public their wrongs, have debates with their representatives on radio and television, and after that, ban them also, but after the reasons for their banning have been understood by the majority of the people.
No, the way to fight the Watchtower is the same there as it is here - expose them! Expose their lies, hypocrisy, unscriptural teachings and false prophecy. Help JW's to start thinking for themselves. Expecting governments to act against false religions is a dangerous row to hoe; all to quickly, everyone's freedoms can be lost.

I partly agree. Educating is the best way. But a nation has a duty to all citizens. It is time to protect them all and not allow their protection for the sake of their being a religion. They should be sued for breach of contract. In their baptism it should be specified all the dangers of belonging to them, and the right to give their free will once baptized, such as having to change their beliefs once the GB changes its mind.
Blondie,
Thanks for the link.
What bothers me is that I cannot find an email to the Russian Gov. supporting their decision.
Faraon

One sociological study entitled The Family and the Bible, conducted by A.I. Antonov, head of the Department of Family Sociology at the Lomonsov Moscow State University, established that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses "plays an important role in strengthening the institute of the family." In particular it shows a divorce rate among Jehovah's Witnesses of less than 5 percent compared with 40 percent among the general population of Moscow. The study also revealed a much higher level of education among Jehovah's Witnesses (when compared with that of the average Muscovite), which tends toward independent rational thinking and decision-making. "Tolerant attitudes and conduct improve the longer a person is a Witness," said Professor Antonov.
Either he is a liar, this is the usual propaganda of the WT, or suffers from delusions. In order to make a study like this, the WTBTS should open their membership files, past and present. I'd like to see really the results then. I could say that Catholics have 0% of divorce rates, if they excomunicate 100% of their divorcees.
NeonMadman

A cult should be automatically banned once it curtails its members from having the same liberties that a nation at large has or is responsible for deaths through neglect.

The first problem is, who gets to make the decision which cult needs to be banned? Look around this board. You may not consider Catholics, Baptists, etc. to be destructive religions, but there are plenty here who consider all religion to be destructive. In a situation where any group that "curtails its members from having the same liberties that a nation at large has," every group is vulnerable. Many religions prohibit divorce, or abortion. If those things are legal in a country, should any religion that prohibits them be banned, because its members' liberties are being curtailed?
The other problem is that, ultimately, the cult is not forcing anyone to do anything. Though the cult may have subverted the individual's free will, this will be difficult to prove - and would have to be proven in each individual case - in a legal setting. Look at how many non-JW's there are who sympatize with JW teaching, and would refuse a blood transfusion if they needed one. (I'm talking here about unbaptized Bible studies, "unbelieving" mates, etc. - I've know many such unbaptized individuals who would still have towed the JW line in a pinch.) Those people aren't acting under coercion (i.e., fear of disfellowshipping). They are exercising free will based upon what they believe, even though what they believe may be harmful and untrue. People should have the right to believe falsehoods, if they want to.
Would you support a religion that kills and burns other human beings just because it is a religion?

No, of course not. I wouldn't support it personally, and I would support government intervention to the extent of prosecuting those who engage in the act of murder. If a cult member is arrested and tried because, for example, he sacrificed a baby to Moloch, then it is right and proper that he should be tried for the murder. However, he would also be tried had he killed the child in a non-religious setting. Murder is a crime in any event. But I don't believe that the Church of Moloch, or whatever, should be banned. I certainly favor prosecuting crimes committed by cult members or leaders, provided that those crimes would be crimes in another setting as well. Banning religious groups because their practices are repugnant is a dangerous slippery slope.
In fact, we have an example of sorts in the Mormon church. A century or so ago, they were having all sorts of legal problems because of their practice of polygamy. Some wanted to destroy the church because of what was considered a morally repugnant practice. But was that appropriate? I don't think so. While individual cases of polygamy were rightly prosecuted under existing laws, the church survived. Ultimately, it wised up and banned polygamy among its members in order to conform to existing laws and end the legal hassles. No one suggests today that the LDS church should be shut down - even though Mormon scripture still advocates polygamy!
This order was to pay for a philological-psycho/linguistic expert study to be conducted on the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses published in the past ten years.

And I have no problem with a government study, either. But if, as was reflected in the first post in the thread, "This is nothing more than a determination to find experts who will support a ban on Jehovah's Witnesses," then I have a problem with it. Perhaps, if these "experts" find harmful information leading to a ban on JW's, the next study will be conducted on the Bible itself?
Educating is the best way. But a nation has a duty to all citizens. It is time to protect them all and not allow their protection for the sake of their being a religion.

I agree, but I think that the way for a nation to protect its citizens is to enforce existing laws, and to make new laws, if needed, against harmful and quantifiable behaviors. It is the proscribed behaviors that should be prosecuted when the laws are violated. A religion should not be banned simply because its teachings conflict with existing laws, but any actual violation of those laws should be prosecuted. I would also consider it wrong to frame laws in such a way as to target one group. If, for example, a law were made in which any sort of public evangelizing would be allowed except calling from house to house, it would be pretty clear to me that JW's were being targeted.
They should be sued for breach of contract. In their baptism it should be specified all the dangers of belonging to them, and the right to give their free will once baptized, such as having to change their beliefs once the GB changes its mind.
Now you're talking! As many of us know, people get baptized as JW's all the time without being told the full ramifications of what they are getting into. The situation has only gotten worse in recent years with the Society's "dumbing down" of the introductory study books. While it would be logistically difficult for government to enforce full disclosure up front, it would certainly be possible for the courts to look favorably upon lawsuits brought by those who were defrauded in this way. I have no problem at all with the Watchtower being sued out of existence by those it has harmed!
DanTheMan

Seeking to ban JW's is stupid. Just feeds the persecution complex.
Education is the key. The WT has plenty of skeletons that people in general are not aware of (vaccination & organ transplant bans, failed Armageddon predictions, extreme shunning, demonizing ex-members, "join us or die" theology, etc.). If the Russian government wants to produce a television program for their citizens that lays bare the WT's theology and past history, I'm all for it. The pen is mightier than the sword.

interesting!!!

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