Museum Pic

by peacefulpete 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    When Christians began using a cross as an identifier is a separate issue in my mind. Though your suggestion that it was inherited as the Tav is interesting. I'm foremost interested in the formation of the doctrine of crucifixion. What were the influences and rational for the belief that the Christ was destined to be hung on a tree/xylon. Traditionally it's assumed a crucifixion occurred and that was later perceived to fulfill "prophecy". However, the opposite is more consistent with the process at work in the Gospels. That is, the story was written using elements drashed from the Tanakh. The tree/wood from Deut. and Genesis seems reasonably to be the inspiration for understanding the Christ/Son figure being killed on a tree, likely (and as proposed by Doherty Et Al.) this was in a lower level of heaven or briefly and imperceptively on earth.

    I'm of course also admitting the influence from myths of other deities like Attis and Silenus who were hung on a tree contributed to this anticipation/revelation. Again, perhaps a short time later this was reinterpreted as a Roman execution by crucifixion on a cross per a number of NT writers. And, as you suggest perhaps the familiarity with the Tav symbolism made it all irresistible.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    A few notes I wanted to log onto this thread, so as to consider later.

    As noted above the mytheme death by crucifixion on a tree was ancient and familiar to first century writers. Combine that with the Deut/Genesis link. The usage of the paleo Hebrew TAV as a Jewish symbol for 1. Truth 2. sign 3. life or death. Ez 9:4 places a Tav on the foreheads of those to live. and Then consider texts such as : Sybylline oracles 345: And4 one shall come again from heaven, a man Preeminent, whose hands on fruitful tree By far the noblest of the Hebrews stretched, Who at one time did make the sun stand still (Joshua/Jesus) 350 When he spoke with fair word and holy lips, No longer vex thy soul within thy breast By reason of the sword, rich child of God, Flower longed for by him only, goodly light And noble branch, a scion much beloved....

    Further, the Mandean (followers of John the Baptist) connection is usually overlooked. The Drabsha. Drabsha - Wikipedia

    Rather than be a symbol of crucifixion it represents the 4 directions and the white cloth is the "Light" of God.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Testament of Levi; Chapter 3

    3:1 “Listen, therefore, concerning the heavens which have been shown to you.”
    3:2 “The lowest is dark for this reason: It sees all the injustices of humankind and contains fire, snow, and ice, ready for the Day determined by God’s Righteous Judgment. In it are all the spirits of those dispatched to achieve the punishment of mankind.”
    3:3 “In the second are the armies arrayed for the Day of Judgment to work vengeance on the spirits of error and of Beliar. Above them are the Holy Ones.” Revelation 19:11-16
    3:4 “In the uppermost heaven of all dwells the Great Glory in the Holy of Holies, superior to all holiness.”
    3:5 “There with him are the archangels, who serve and offer propitiatory sacrifices to the Lord in behalf of all the sins of ignorance of the righteous ones.”
    3:6 “They present to the Lord a pleasing odor, a rational and bloodless oblation.”

    Sacrifices are made in heaven.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Ascension of Isaiah 9: 13. Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.

    14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.

    15. And thus His descent, as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is.

    16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day,

  • PioneerSchmioneer
    PioneerSchmioneer

    This is one I know from Catechism school back in Catholic school days. But make of it what you will (and my memory might be foggy--I am old).

    The confusion about the words for some comes from people thinking that Koine Greek was the spoken language of the day in which the New Testament events took place.

    They were not. The events you are reading about took place in three other languages: Aramaic, Latin, and only rarely Liturgical Hebrew. (The Jews did not speak Hebrew in the Second Temple period. Note when Jesus prayed Psalm 22 in Litugical Hebrew from the cross and Jewish people don't know what he is saying because they speak Aramaic as recorded at Mark 13:34-35.)

    Koine Greek, in which the Christian texts are written in, is the lingua franca of the day (much like Latin is to us). Rome was the ruiling power back then, but Greece had previously conquered the world and Hellenized much of the culture before. Because of this, forms of the Greek language, especially Classical Greek, were commonly read and understood by the most learned around the civilized world.

    But to get something out to the most common folk--and since people spoke so many different tongues at the time--which Latin was becoming the most spoken due to Rome's influence--a "common" or vernacular form of Greek was used as the lingua franca to communicate with everyone who could read or understand Greek. Koine Greek was created to do this.

    But there were new inventions that the Greek language could not explain. The "cross," for example, was one of them, as it had not been invented during the time of Alexander the Great when the Greek language was spread throughout the world. The cross was a torture device created by the Roman army--and that was to come later down the road after Alexander.

    While the Greeks under Alexander did indeed impale victims, the Romans found the practice too quick of a punishment. They wanted to torture those they punished to warn the people under their rule not to break Roman laws. By means of experiment, the Romans learned that by merely adding a small platform for the feet to stand on and a bar to stretch out the arms to expand the lungs, one could cause the victim to slowly asphyxiate over a period of several days instead of die in a few short hours. They would tie or nail their victims in place, totally nude, forcing them to have to urinate and release their bowels in public as they slowly died before friends, family, and their neighbors, with a sign posted above listing their crime. Their lungs would slowly fill with fluid over the course of this period, and they would literally drown because they could not support the weight on the tiny platform under their feet. If it took too long for them to die, they would break the victims legs, causing them to drown even quicker in the collected lung fluid. The invention was a Roman "improvement" on the single pale of the Greeks.

    But when translating the Latin word "crux" into Greek, there was no exact word for it. So they used "stauros" (pale) and sometimes "xylon" (tree/wood). But there may be a reason why they used "xylon" if you note when the word begins to appear in the New Testament and you match it with the writings of the Church Fathers.

    According to the Fathers, the Cross of Jesus was, theologically speaking, the Tree of Life because Jesus was the "Second Adam." (1 Co 15:45-58) When the soldiers pierced him and "blood and water" flowed forth, this was symbolic of life-giving rivers in the Garden of Eden. (John 19:33-34; compare John chapter 4 and Genesis 2:10-14) Mary being present was the "woman" spoken of in Genesis 3:15, and unlike Eve who in a sense said "no" to God by partaking of the wrong tree, Mary said "yes" by doing God's will and being the faithful Mother and disciple of Jesus, even to the point of being at the cross when others left his side, in a sense replacing Eve. So a dead tree becomes a Tree that supplies the world Life--according to what the Church Fathers write (and there's a lot of this, so you will likely spend a lot of time looking up these texts, so have fun).

    Anyway, after Jesus dies and is resurrected, you will note in the New Testament, the word used for the cross by Peter (and the author of Luke who previously employed "stauros") is "xylon." In fact, Peter uses it exclusively afterwards in the Bible after the crucifixion and resurrection.--Acts 5:30, 10:39, 1 Pe 2:24.

    And it seems to be theological, as Luke, who is the writer of the Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles, switches from "starous" to "xylon" after the resurrection, putting the word "tree" also in Paul's mouth in his discourse to the Jews.--Acts 13:29.

    The Church Fathers mention that the ties here are not only with the "Tree of Life" theology of the early Church, but that the theology comes from the symbolism it drew from readings of the Alexandrine Septuagint, which it viewed as the official Old Testament in those days. Not only did the texts of hanging a dead criminal upon a "tree" stand out clearly as symbol of Christ to them, but so did the many texts of a "tree" being life-giving and a home for God's creations. The symbolism was not lost on the author of the Book of Revelation.-- Re 2:7; 22:2, 14, 19.

    Of course, this may be considered just hogwash, but I thought it was interesting because there is a pattern, and the Church Fathers did come before the canon of New Testament texts became, well before it was settled.

    And it is true that people tend to think that people were talking in Greek, when in reality the Jews were talking in Aramaic and the Romans in Latin. They were not nailing people to anything that called a "stauros" or a "xylon" because they were not "talking" in Koine Greek.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    P.S. ,,,,I'm certain the interpretive symbolism you describe is accurate. My point of those last haphazard posts was to act as a word doc file for later research. LOL I'm too cheap to buy Word.

    Anyway, the research I am engaged in is the possible preChristian usage of the tree or cross that may have inspired the Jesus story. There are just so many provocative elements from the period.

    I am strongly inclined to accept some form of a Christ myth reconstruction of Christian origins.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Alexamenos graffito

    In the Palatine museum in Rome there is a collection of ancient graffiti etched on slabs of marble and limestone that once defaced the walls of palaces and public buildings across the Roman Empire. Among these is one that historians call “Alexamenos graffito”. It depicts a roughly drawn figure of a man with the head of an ass crucified on a cross. Next to the crucified figure is a smaller figure with one arm extended towards the former. Underneath the figures is a caption, written in equally crude letters, that reads “ΑΛΕ ξΑΜΕΝΟϹ ϹΕΒΕΤΕ ϑΕΟΝ”, meaning “Alexamenos worshipping his God.”

    Carved sometime between the first and the third centuries... The graffiti was discovered on a building complex that was unearthed in 1857 on the Palatine Hill in Rome.

    Case Closed as far as I'm concerned.

    Christians have been mocked since the beginning.

    Post Script: Crosses carved in Pompeii date to before the eruption in 79AD which buired everything in a time capsule.

    - Sea Breeze

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    What case is that?

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Perhaps that was a bit clumsy of me. Sea Breeze, Perhaps you assumed I would disagree about the intent of the Gospel writers. As I mentioned last year when I started this thread, I am sure that the Roman execution by nailing to a cross was described.

    Ironically, what some interpret as mocking the Christian faith, in my mind actually elevates it. If the origins of the Christian faith are found to have been purely revelatory, mystical and spiritual, in my mind that is of a higher Christology than that presented in the Canonical Gospels. If that is true, then the second layer of Christian development (the creation of historizing story drawn from Homer and the OT) diminished the story and insulted the original believers.

    Religious "truth" is not measured by eye witnesses, but by the elevating of people's value and love.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @peacefulpete

    Religious "truth" is not measured by eye witnesses, but by the elevating of people's value and love.

    This is a self defeating statement. How do ytou know if your statement is true?

    You use a lot sophistry in describing Christianity.

    The simple facts are that a man who was prophesied to be god, did a bunch of miracles healing people and claimed that he would resurrect himself from the dead after he was murdered. Then, he did it. He was viewed as the Creator in the flesh from the earliest believers, especially after showing himself to hundreds of people after he came back from the dead, therefore leaving behind a huge group of eye-witnesses. People liked what he taught about freedom and unending life and were inclined to put their ultimate trust in him instead of themselves, religious leaders, inadequet philosophies, or really anything else.

    There is a lot to like about all that, especially since there is sound historical documentation that supports it. Why would anyone place their ultimate trust in someone, or something with no power to defeat death? Kinda, gets Jesus out in front of all the competetion doesn't it?

    For instance, these miracles of Jesus are far more believable than the miracles that secular materialists believe in.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krBhwImfPnU&ab_channel=CreationMinistriesInternational

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