by l3gi0n 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi Craig,
Saul...A fiery spirit,
Well, I know a little about having a "fiery spirit".
Paul fought for what he believed was right or true. I don't think it was "show me where any battle is".
It's like being a JW. As JWs some of us were very zealous and gave it our all, including shunning family members. Now, as exJWs, we give our all to "fight" against the Tower. Then and now, we fight for what we feel is true or right, but it does not mean we will take up literal arms against the Watchtower.
IW
First of all, been there and done that!
A choice can mean life or death. What wars fought by mankind were/are sanctioned by God? Anything current? Does anyone really know?
Sometimes, decisions must be made and actions taken to preserve a way of life and to preserve the lives of many.
If "we" have enough time and ALL of the information, perhaps the right choice can be made. If we must defend ourselves' through no fault or involvement of our own, than we are doing what is natural and correct. To kill for someone else, well, that is asking a bit much. What are your options? What is the RIGHT thing to do?
To kill in self defense is one matter. To kill another human being for any other reason, is asking for judgement by yourself, Mankind and by GOD.
But, of course, if GOD is instructing you to do the fighting, how can a person argue with God? How many wars and conflicts going on today are directed by God?
Does it really matter anymore?....................................
IW, you provoke me, you really do! LOL
But, to the topic, eh? The Pauline/Rutherford issue is somewhat peripheral to my recent reflections (though I will follow up on that, at another time). Of course, as a JW I would not have joined the military. I was a RP and at Bethel during the VietNam war (my lottery number was 59). When I left Bethel (since I left before my 4 years, I was forbidden to be a RP for at least 6 months after) I was re-classified as 1A and had to appear before the draft board. Then, I would have gone to prison instead of fight.
Now, I'm not at all so sure.
Mr. Kim, you mention self-defense. Where does the "line of self-defense" happen? Inside my home? In my front yard? Only if it threatens me or Katie? How about my neighbors? My community? My way of life, and freedom to live as I see fit? Is "love of neighbor" to be interpreted as "let yourself be killed first?"
As I feel right now, I'd go to war if I thought the cause was justified...and God isn't going to tell me that; I'll just have to figure it out for myself, and make my own conscientious decision.
Craig
Onacruise and concerned others,
We have the same rights as aloted to Police (as far as self-defense goes). If you feel that you may suffer bodily harm, death etc. you can take reasonable and immediate actions to stop the attacker including the use of deadly force. Now, each state will have different laws which regulate this action. It is wise to check the specific law first in your state of residence.
As far as Police, Law Enforcement are concerned, all you have to do is THREATEN them and they are JUSTIFIED IN USING DEADLY FORCE. All the Police have to do is "feel" threatened. And bang, your dead! In the aftermath, there will be a rather quick investigation by the DA and after a week or two,- all is back to normal for the Police, etc. But you are still dead! Justified? Not in all cases. Who will bring the dead back to life and restore everything back the way it was? NOT MANKIND!!
Would I let myself or wife, children or other within my reach be killed or harmed if I could prevent it? NO! Hell NO! I would not stop and think about the situation as the situation "its self" dictate the actions and level of response to any hostile force.
Now, can you kill someone for stealing from you? Pushing you, threatening you, being mean to you, etc.? OF COURSE NOT! Common sense plays a major role in all decisions. Also, is the use of deadly force justified?---the Courts have made surprising decisions and stupid Laws that force people to do "the right thing"..
People should NOT be proud to kill other people. Sometimes it is-- unfortunately, necessary to kill.
Simply put, some people have to die, period. God knows this. The trouble is, who will decide who dies and who lives? You? Me? God? Does the "situation" warrent the use of deadly force? Did I put myself in this situation? Did I have a choice BEFORE I find myself required to use deadly force? Did I know ahead of time that I might have to kill someone?
Until you have personally--first hand-- experienced the horrific things associated with war, death and destruction, people as individuals will not fully understand the value of human life and the pursuit of "peace among all mankind".
The glorification of war and the spectacular (brave-?) ways people can die is truely a "bad thing"--not something to look forward to and enjoy.
Avoid these things if it is possible to do so!
KIM
That is: Onacruse (Craig) and concerned others.
1. The WTS owns stock in the Rand Corporation (stock symbol: REGI) which makes ceramic engines for smart bombs, and has numerous other mostly military applications. This is hypocrisy, as working for a military manufacturer would be a disfellowshipping offense, to the best of my knowledge. The WTS should disfellowship itself then. Go to www.10Kwizard.com and search under Watchtower and see the public records on this for yourself.
September 22, 2004 news articles:
Israel to Get 5,000 Smart Bombs From US
View Israel to Get 5,000 Smart Bombs From US.
www.myantiwar.org/view/28016.html - 2k - Sep 22, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages
Haaretz - Israel News
... Last Update: 21/09/2004 16:27. US to sell Israel 5,000 smart bombs, By Aluf
Benn, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service. The United ...
www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/479647.html - 72k - Sep 21, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages
Aljazeera.Net - US to sell Israel 5000 smart bombs
US to sell Israel 5000 smart bombs. Tuesday 21 September 2004, 17:29 Makka Time,
14:29 GMT. Israel has used US-made bombs to kill several Palestinians. ...
english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ 8C117F99-C20E-4738-A15B-0BF683A1B21B.htm - 71k - Sep 21, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages
sKally
Somehow i would find it very hard to believe that if paul or timothy or jesus Christ for that matter would drop bombs on cities and fellow believers simply because their country tells them that they should do so.
Also,i couldnt see Paul( if Israel had been independent in his day) fighting his fellow christian Timothy( if his country werent ruled by the romans either ) if their two countries were at war with each other .
Somehow i dont think that is the way for any True Christian .Not for man to direct his steps!
That?s why I find Christianity hypocritical and inconsistent. The Jews of the Old Testament were very war like, whereas the Jesus of the New Testament was very pacify and taught an opposite message of loving ones neighbor.
I choose not to have guns or weapons in my house. However if anyone broke in I would do what ever I could do to defend myself. I choose to use other means besides violence to resolve differences in my life.
A good example was last night I was at my local pub and some puke sitting over at the next table that I didn't even know started to mouth of to me. At first I didn't know he was talking to me. If I was back in the 5th grade or had an IQ of a potato, I would have walked over and confronted him. All that would have done was escalated the situation and someone would have got hurt or maybe killed. I did not empower the AS by responding, I just ignored him and he eventually went away. Although if he would have came over to my table it would have been a different story. I know some here would think that is chicken but if I ended up dead, where would have gained me. As
I totally understand where you are coming from ,BUT think about it.What if you did react to him and instead of now being able to tell me this story you were 6 foot under because he might have pulled a knife on you.Yes you did the right thing by turning the other cheek.
Also remember jesus as well as his disciples whenever threatened even to the point for eg when they tried to grab hold of jesus a number of times did not retaliate by fighting back but simply slipped away from the situation.Was that chicken. No it certainly wasnt , i know that most people would react ,many would see red and strike out,,,get your hands of me ,or the like. It takes a lot of courage for a man to turn the other cheek and walk away.Its easy to hate.
Whats more when jesus was being arrested ,he himself said he could have used his angels to fight those arresting him.But that wasnt the way for Christians.Thats why we look to his example as his followers .
Also supposing you never knew anything about Christianity.You were 30 years of age just prior to the 2nd world war and a you get into a conversation with a very spiritual man who comes from Germany about why jesus had to die for us.For years you listen to this man ,he helps many to learn about Christ.You now have a very strong faith in God.But then he tells you that he has a duty to go back to his native country to fight for his country as that is what his country demands.You understand his reasoning for this as it is his duty as much as it is your duty to fight for your country.
Several years later ,after the horrors of that war,the millions who died including the holocausts he waltzes back into your congregation and says "well i know what went on now, but i didnt know then(re the holocaust of which he sincerely didnt know about) .But it was still my duty to fight for my country".
Would you still agree that a Christian has the right to fight as part of his duty for his country ?
The Germans that fought in the 2 World War thought that God was on their side just as much as the British and American's did. I know by watching all the news reels and talking to veterans. It is tragic when some leader tells you that God is blessing you and to go out and kill your fellow humans. Same can be said about those "insurgents" in Iraq. They feel just as religiously that God is on their sides as much as their American occupiers. Do you wonder why I have no use for religion?
Will
