by Brummie 47 Replies latest jw friends
it makes me wonder if these folks didn't learn what is, in my opinion, the biggest lesson to be learned from being a witness. Quit being a follower.
Rizzy,
No offense, but that's the wordiest I've seen you in some time. My sentiments exactly.
BTW, in the cult I'm thinking of forming, there's a spot open for COO...
I could be wrong and forgive me if I am, but IMO people aren't really free if seeing new truths can only be accomplished by reading another's words.
Very interesting post Teejay... first, the point you made I quoted above is for me an important one. I love discussions. Dubbie Englishman at birth I might be, but my family sounded like WWIII round the dinner table, but were fine when they got up from it, even if they still disagreed.
When discussing certain topics, I am constantly amazed that people ARE willing to draw conclusions based on what others say, without a deep enough knowledge of the subject to be able to evaluate such statements in a comprehensive fashion.
I don't get into headbanging arguments about Scripture normally, as I'd get out of my depth. I know some, but it's superficial enough knowledge to be swayed by an appealing argument, rather than the one with the most likely conclusion.
If Scripture was pertinent to my conclusions about what life is, I'd make damn sure I knew it better.
In scientific discussions, I know sometimes people get pissy if I tell them to go and read some books, but that is why I do it. If they have examined the data, fine, we'll differ. If they don't know enough of the data to reach a sound conclusion, well, all it takes is effort. This is not about intelligence.
I don't think you meant, and certainly don't agree that such people cultivate a cult. They are not egoless either, but none of us are. Some peope maintain large social networks to asuage their egos, and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people get that same gratification in defending the USA. Others with discussing stuff, because discussing stuff is what gratifies them.
But, no matter how smart or clever or funny the arguments people put forward, we have a signal responsibility to know what we're talking about before we invest our trust in their conclusions. We all trusted too much, too long, in others 'wisdom'. I think everyone of the people mentioned would be horrified at the idea of people just listening to what they say; it terrifies me.
However, if there is a need, I'm quite happy to start a cult; not about me. The cult of RAFB; read a f*ucking book.
Teejay-
You are SO right.
teej,
No offense, but that's the wordiest I've seen you in some time.
None taken! I know. I've been the queen of one-liners lately, havent' I?
there's a spot open for COO...
I'm your Huckleberry
All I know is that if the F-man comments on my post I feel it's validation. Maverick
but the Cult of Farkel is no different than the Cult of AlanF. And the Cult of AlanF is no different than the Cult of Charles Taze Russell or the WtB&TS. Until a person is willing to step out on that mental limb and truly risk being "wrong" and thinking for oneself, they are subject to being forever led by someone else.
Good lord teejay.... that is total bullshit! I guess every writer on this planet should quit writing for fear of influencing someone. School books should also be thrown out as they are opinions of other people. Are you serious. You equate Farkle and Alan as cult daddies?
Alan and Farkle and the rest... in their essays... state facts and statistics. If they state an opinion.....they have that right as you do. If somebody thinks their opinion makes sense and believes that way also.......so what. We all learn from each other. You yourself have appreciated the thoughts from others on this board and I am sure they have influenced some of your thinking. Whats the difference.
You are an inigma to me. You can be a great poster and say some fine things....then turn around and come up with this stuff. What the hells up with that?
Gumby
Obviously we learn from each other. There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing commentaries as Farkel has and having others find something worthwhile in what he says. At the same time, there's nothing wrong with reading Farkel's thoughts and getting an enhanced perspective on ideas we already have. The problem is when the writer steps far outside the boundaries of common courtesy and proceeds to excoriate others. I don't know about you but there are enough jerks in my real life that I don't need to click on here and have to see the postings of yet another one.
It's bad enough when people fail to acknowledge or even SEE the pain that Farkel causes by the disrespect he gives the person who disagrees with him and the words he uses to express his disrespect. It's worse when they *do* see it and only make excuses – or worse: try to give what really are bad manners a certain cache or cool or attempt to attach a wittiness to something we wouldn't THINK of tolerating in anyone else. That's what I mean by cult mentality. Here, you've been outspoken in your disagreement with me. When's the last time you did that with Farkel when he was clearly in the wrong?
As it is with Farkel, so it is with all of us. We bring both good and bad things, positive and negative traits. When picking friends (or just associates) the question we all face is: is there enough good in this person that it far outweighs the bad. With Farkel, for all of his good, the answer for me is, No, the good does not outweigh the bad. So I'd rather not see, hear, or read any of his comments – not if I have to read all that ugliness along with the little good that might be there.
You are an inigma to me. You can be a great poster and say some fine things....then turn around and come up with this stuff. What the hells up with that?
I'm imperfect. Not everything I say or do is brilliant. In that respect, I'm a bit like Farkel, just not nearly as disrespectful.
I think that the vast majority of people became JWs in the first place, not because of the doctrines and clever reasonings, but because of the emotional ties from family or friends or "those nice people" who kept calling on them. They stay because of the social pressures and benefits.
How many JWs could even describe what the societies current beliefs were beyond vague notions that "Jesus is gods son" and they're "waiting for his kingdom"?
No, people are not JWs because of doctrines - they are JWs in spite of doctrines.
They leave when they realise that they or people they care about are being mistreated.
Once people have left I think they may search out essays and such like to confirm that they have made the right decision, that there is no nagging doubt in the back of their mind telling them "but what if they are right?!"
I don't think that clever discussions of doctrines really helps that many people to leave. I think personal accounts and stories that show things have happened to other people too, "you are not alone" and it isn't "your fault" help a great deal. People need emotional support and friendship and that is what enables people to get out - the same things that enabled them to get sucked in originally.
This is why I personally do not like people thinking that they should be able to be mean and insulting to others because they have written some wonderful essays years ago or it somehow excuses them bullying people and treating them like dirt. Everynoe deserves respect and a chance to express themselves and ask questions and work things out in their own time IMHO.
I tend to agree with that. Many persons have written excellent stuff years ago, but that doesn't mean that we should stay in awe of them forever. I look back at what I wrote 3 or 4 years ago and it was far more incisive than anything that I have to say now. The reason is that it's all been said. I'm finished with my business with Jehovah's witnesses. My interest here is now far more of a social thing than it was before.
Englishman.
They leave when they realise that they or people they care about are being mistreated.
I think this is true for the majority, however I heard so many JWs say "If this wasnt the truth I would leave", in other words they felt they were being treated so badly that the only thing keeping them inside was the doctrinal aspects. Some of the people I heard say this are still JWs today.
Brummie
