Will The Pope Just Die Already!

by xjw_b12 40 Replies latest social current

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  Yerusalyim

  DJ,

  I can give ya the short answer and the long answer. The short answer isn't real pleasant to most Catholics. The short answer is that it (praying to saints) developed as a replacement for the polythiestic pagan belief they were converted from (some forcefully converted, some not).

  The short answer can't really be understood without the more theologically based long answer, which is this...

  No Christian I know would think twice about praying for someone they knew to be in trouble, or if they were asked. Nor would they think twice about asking someone they knew to be a devout Christian to pray FOR them. Especially if that person is seen as a devout prayer, or has in the past been seen to receive dynamic results from their prayers. Given that I don't understand why the short step to asking saints to pray for us is so difficult for them. Simply put the word pray means "Ask" and at least in Catholic theology prayer in and of itself is NOT worship unless the individual praying (asking) means it to be.
  
  Catholics believe that there are a great number of people who when they die go directly to God (thier soul that is, not their body). We believe that these the Church Triumphant, are still part of the Body of Christ mystically connected to us as all members of the body of Christ are. If they are still part of Christ's body, then they are still concerned for us...if still concerned for us, they will pray for us...if they pray for us they pray perfectly because in heaven, they become as God is, because they see God as he truly is (1 John 3).

  So, in a simple form, yes, we ask the saints to join their prayers with ours to God. Where two or three are gathered in His name...

  good enough or do ya need more. Feel free to ask anything.

  By the way, the connection between the short answer and long answer is this... The theology existed before the scenario of the short answer was given. An uncatechized (not religiously educated) populace saw or were told of people praying to saints and said, "Hey, we can do that" Today, not enough Catholics KNOW their faith, and generally can't give a good answer to that question. I thank God I had good educators.
• 

  Celia

  I love this Pope. Have you seen pictures of him around children? You can see that he really love them - and pictures of teenagers that he visited in a school - I forgot where it was, but he went through the classroom and just touched the top of the head of some teenage girl, as a blessing, I suppose - the girl was ecstatic. I love him.
• 

  proplog2

  Criticizing the pope is a fun jw/protestant thing to do. I think he is a great leader.

  Have you read any of the pope's writing?

  His writings are superb moral admonition.

  It must be a challenge to be a leader of almost a billion people.
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  frogit

  The Pope is a good man (but lost) and cares for people (he thinks), but he is like a celebrity and plays with peoples emotions, when he came to Ireland in the 80s he set the whole nation on fire, by just being there.(I was)….

  What good as he done for the world (nothing....maybe a little)?

  The issue of contraception as in my humble opinion brought about much suffering (in this the hungry world); and added too much guilt (how many sincere Catholics suffer from guilt?), to good and honest people of this world..

  He pretends to be lowly, but look at the continued harm and suffering he has given this world, by not allowing birth control.

  He should have changed the rules, or died years ago….

  frogit
• 

  Gwydion

  It is true that I am not an authority on popes or the Catholic religion. Of course no two people will be the same and some people have more personality than others and I believe the same can be said of popes. It absolutely doesn't matter to me who is pope just as it matters not to me who is on the JW governing body. or any other religious/cultish organizations for that matter. They are all equals in the eyes of this human being.
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  DJ

  Yeru,

  Ohhhhh. Thanks for explaining that to me. I can understand it now even though I am not sure that I agree, only because it has no scriptural foundation for me... If Paul prayed to Steven and asked him to speak with God for him, then I would agree. I guess that I feel that we only need Christ as our mediator and high priest. I do see what you are saying though. They are asking the saints to act as mediators? Does the same go for Mary too? On the outside it appears to be polytheist but God knows their intent in their hearts and only He judges. When I read these prayers to St. Jude in the newspaper, I always wonder if the people think that she aactually answered because they are always thanking her. Why don't I ever see them giving the thanks to God for their answered prayers? Thanks a lot. dj
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Frogit,
  

  The Catholic Church addressed the issue of Birth Control a LONG time ago, what they predicted would happen with the advent of artifical contraceptives has come true...and increase in unwanted pregnancy, single moms, irrespeonsible sexual behavior (thus the rapid spread of the HIV virus, amongst other things). Perhaps it's not the church that's wrong, but the rest of the world. Maybe sex is better with one partner only. Maybe the over sensualization society has seen isn't such a good thing. Perhaps RESPONSIBILITY is an important aspect of sex.

  What good has he done the world? More than the average bear. He oversees the church responsible for so much of the charitable actions we see around the world, soup kitchens, social action programs, aid to the poor in different countries, etc.

  You are right, contraception has brought about much suffering...the oversexualization of society, teen pregnancy, single moms, run away dads, etc

  Continued harm and suffering? What harm and suffering. Talk to be about the forced abortions and forced sterilizations in China, or the UN programs that have duped African women into sterilzation clinics and abortion.

  The pope isn't capable of changing the Churches teaching on contraceptives, he just doesn't have the kind of authority you think he does. Contraceptives aren't restricted in all case, and the "rythm method" does work, it just ain't fun cuz there are times in the month when intercourse is off limits, damn, it requires RESPONSIBILITY on the part of the couple.

  The sexual revolution seen in American in the 60's and 70's wasn't a good thing, really. It hurt families.

  One big difference in the Catholics and JW's is that if you violate the contraceptive thingy, no excommunication. Violate a teaching of the JW's and DISFELLOWSHIP follows. Catholic Church, hard to get excommunicated, easy to have it lifted.

  DJ,

  I understand your reticence about prayer to saints. One thing I left out was that we don't attribute the saints with the power to "answer" our prayers, and they are no more mediators for us than you would be if I asked you to pray for me. Mary is seen as I've described here. Our special devotion to Mary has to do with her example of Faith. She said Yes to God against the odds, she was with him in much of his ministry, and our example of turning to her is given in the account of the Wedding at Cana, even after Jesus said the lack of wine wasn't his concern, Mary, in faith, told the servants to do whatever Jesus instructed.

  Those Prayers to Saint Jude (he's a guy, wrote a letter now in the bible even) aren't approved by the church. WHile I might publically acclaim someone whose come through for me (like I did my friend that gave me $300.00) if one attaches any type of superstition to it like "say this prayer nine times and publish a letter of thanks in the paper, and your prayer will be granted" is definitely NOT Catholic.
• 

  Robdar

  I never thought that I would live long enough to agree with Yeru, but I do this time.

  Pope John Paul II is a kind, loving, soul. It is obvious that he cares for his flock. That's more than I can say about the governing body.

  Robyn
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  Yerusalyim

  Robyn

  Holy Cow, we can agree, I bet you don't say the same about my response to Frogit though. I think it helps to remember where Karol Wyatolja (the Pope) came from. He's not had his head in the clouds all his life. He suffered the Nazi's in Poland, then he Communists, and is viewed by many Historians as being instrumental in the fall of Communism in Europe.
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  rocketman

  All I can say is that I hope the Pope never sits towards the front when he goes to the theater to see a movie.

  rocketman of the 'hey, you, with the hat!' class