Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 81 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • BoogerMan
    BoogerMan

    @ aqwesed - You claimed (as most/all trinitarians do) "But because Jesus was both God and man in one person..."

    1) Do you disagree/believe this: Matthew 20:28 - “‘For this is how the Son of Man came… Not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    2) Do you disagree/believe this: 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 - "...a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."

    3) Do you disagree/believe this: 1st Corinthians 15:21,22,45 - Jesus replaced Adam as mankind's life-giving ancestor, with the whole human race owing their life to him, not to Adam. That will include everyone who is resurrected, and all those who survive the end. Isaiah 9:6 confirms this, by prophetically calling Jesus, “Everlasting Father.”

    If Jesus' ransom corresponds to what Adam lost, it logically follows (if your claim is true) that Adam himself must have been "fully God & fully man," otherwise, Jesus' ransom price was far, far, greater than what Adam forfeited, and not "corresponding.".

    Have you ever heard of such an anomaly with a ransom?

    When can a ransom repurchase price ever be greater or lesser than what was lost?

    If you can, please provide scriptural references if you disagree with anything here.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    BoogerMan

    None of the verses you quoted claim that Jesus was "only" a man. The Scriptures state that Jesus is both man and God at the same time. That's exactly one... and two pieces of natures, the two cannot be played against each other, since, as the Council of Chalcedon says, Jesus is "to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεόν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Chris". Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother: What he was, he remained and what he was not, he assumed. With his incarnation, he took on human nature and will no longer put it down.

    1Timothy 2:6 in the original text there is no "corresponding", this is also one of the infamous Bible forgery inserts in the NWT. Check THIS. While in the WTS theology the ramsom is of equal value, Jesus gives more than the restoration of Adam's perfect condition to those who believe in Him (Romans 5:15-16). Check these:

    But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ's inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon's envy had taken away." and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature's being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, 'Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more'; and the Exsultet sings, 'O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!'"

    Check THIS too.

    Whoever believes, God declares them justified (Rom 3:22-26), adopts them as His child (Jn 1:12-13, Gal 3:26, 4:6, Rom 8:15-16), is born of God (1Jn 5:1 cf. Jn 3:1-8), has received the Spirit (Jn 7:37-39, 1Cor 12:13-14), is sealed and anointed with Him (Eph 1:13, 2Cor 1:21-22), God dwells in them (Jn 14:17, Eph 3:17, 2Jn 9). All this is the work of God (Phil 1:6), whoever trusts in Him will not perish (Jn 3:16,10:28-30, 1Pt 1:3-9, Jude 24). Believers have one, common hope (Eph 4:3-6), the faith of the apostles and the believers is of equal value (2Pt 1:1).

    Isn't it an unjust reward? According to the Watchtower Society, if after Adam's fall, converts would not only regain eternal life on earth, but could also go to heaven, then humanity would actually receive a higher reward through the fall, without deserving it, which would be unjust. Isn't that logical? However, let's take a look again at the scriptures referenced by the Society, and their claims about them:

    Genesis 2:16-17 The Society claims that the "death" due for Adam's fall "is not the gate of heaven, but the punishment for disobedience."

    This is indeed the case, and every Christian denomination views death as a punishment, as an enemy. The referenced section, however, says nothing about man's state after death.

    1 Timothy 2:6 In the Society's translation, it reads: Christ "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all" (NWT). The ransom is "corresponding" in their translation, that is, equivalent. Adam lost perfect human life, and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, regained it by sacrificing his own perfect human life, he regained it for believers.

    First of all, the original expression (antilytron = ransom) only appears here in the New Testament, and is just one of many similar expressions that describe the same redemption (Mt 20:28 lytron, Eph 1:14 apolytrosis, etc.). It cannot be claimed that a ransom - either in the Bible or in the world - is necessarily of equivalent value.

    Secondly, God, according to the Bible, wants to give more than a perfect human life, even if it seems "unfair" to the Society. According to Paul (Rom 5:12-21), Adam is indeed a prefiguration of Jesus at one point: as sin entered the world through Adam and spread to everyone, so too did justification enter the world through Jesus, and is given to every believer (see 5:18-19). However, he continues: "But it is not true that the sin is like the gift of grace (...) God's grace and gift poured out even more abundantly (...) where the sin increased, there the grace poured out even more abundantly" (5:15-16,20). For example, according to 2Pt 1:4, believers "have become partakers of the divine nature", and according to 1Jn 3:1-2, they will become like Christ, etc. The question is not whether this applies to all believers or just 144,000, but whether, if it applies to even a single person, how could Christ's life be of equivalent value to Adam's?

    Perhaps these few examples have shown how important it is to take into account the context of the text, the internal connections of a given section, and its original and true message before linking it to another. There is a big difference between searching the Bible for snippets that can be quoted to support our own theory, or letting the entire message of the Bible shape our own thinking.

    It's easy to find sentences in the Bible that we could say too, but nobody would be interested in that. But if they are in the Bible, they support our thoughts with divine authority - or so it may seem. I encourage you to always study carefully the scriptures that "support" other teachings of the Society, and always try to discover the internal connections of the text, the real intention of the speaker. You will be surprised many times, but it is worth it!

    On the other hand, 1 Timothy 2:5 is particularly problematic for the WTS theology, since they believe that Jesus ceased to be human when he died, and that his resurrection actually means recreation, restoration to be an angel.

    "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"

    So if Jesus ceased to be man, then we no longer have a mediator. Let's say that in the case of JWs, he is not mediator for the rank-and-file members (only for the "anointed" class, thus the inner party), to whom the majority of members belong based on the two-class salvation regime invented in 1935.

    It shows how two-faced the image of God is for Jehovah's Witnesses. They claim that God must "prove" his sovereignty in the face of Satan's challenge. Even if they could find a point of reference for such a conception in Job 1, it would not be permissible to go so far as to place God on the same level as Satan, as if they were competitors, and that God must prove stronger than Satan. Such thoughts, even if the Jehovah's Witnesses would reject them, dangerously approach dualism (two, usually equally strong powers, fighting for control). This completely contradicts YHWH's omnipotence, uniqueness, sovereignty and (cf. Exodus 2:20k; Deuteronomy 6:4). Such declarations by Jehovah's Witnesses about God provide further evidence that, despite their emphasis on the singularity and absoluteness of Jehovah, they do not know the true, absolute God, but cobble together their own "god" who must fit into the world drama they have planned.

    This is fully revealed when we look at Christ. In the section titled "God", I have already shown that Christ is not a creature, but the second person of the Trinity. It would therefore actually be unnecessary to further discuss whether Michael the archangel is identical to him. However, questions arise in relation to the soteriology that necessitate a closer examination of the image of God of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Here we see that the dualistic view of God held by Jehovah's Witnesses continues on various levels. They posit a dualism between Michael and Lucifer, between Jesus and Lucifer, and - on another level - between (Michael-)Jesus and Adam. Since they consider Jesus to be only an angelic being, or - temporarily - merely a human being, such a juxtaposition seems legitimate between "equal partners" or "contractors".

    Meanwhile, of course, they ignore the fact that Jesus is not on the same level as angels and humans, but is completely on the side of God. His temporary human existence should not be misunderstood to mean that he was merely a human being, but rather that he was both a real God and a real human being. During his earthly ministry, he did not express his "angelic existence", but rather his divine form, without losing his divine being. On the other hand, Jehovah's Witnesses devalue Christ. Although they attribute a central place to his "ransom" - his sacrifice, according to their opinion, this is not sufficient for redemption.

    Jehovah's Witnesses primarily cite four biblical passages in support of the alleged identity of Jesus Christ and Michael the archangel: Daniel 12:1; 1Thess 4:16; Jude 9 and Rev 12:7-12. In each place, Michael the archangel is spoken of. "Michael" means "Who is like God?" - not "Who is as God" (Russell incorrectly translated it this way). The fact that Michael is a prominent angel, and as the "commander-in-chief" of the divine angelic hosts has a special place, is clear from every biblical passage where his name appears, but nowhere as the identical person to Christ. Jesus is much more above Michael and all angels (cf. Heb 1 etc.; see above).

    For example, in Daniel 12:1 and Revelation 12:7-12, when the battle between Michael and Satan is mentioned, Michael acts here with Christ's full authority and commission, but not as Christ. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes that Christ does not fight alone against Satan and the demonic powers, but in the company of his angels - and among them, the first place is Michael, the archangel, whose voice will sound along with God's trumpet at Christ's return (1Thess 4:16; cf. Mt 24:30 par; 2Thess 1:7). Michael's voice only resounds loudly at the time of the world's judgment. However, during the resurrection of the dead, only the voice of Christ, the Son of God, will be heard. It is solely Christ's - not Michael the Archangel's - power to bring the dead back to life (John 5:25.28k). After all, Christ is not a creature, but the living Son of God.

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