by Doug Mason 31 Replies latest watchtower bible
Doug Mason
Most certainly as the Society's response covers the matter clearly:
Thus, while these ancient writers may not have been fully accurate in all the particulars, they do all agree on one point, namely, that the Jews were in captivity for 70 years, and some of these indicate that Jerusalem was desolate for the entire period.
scholar
Hi Scholar,
No one disagrees that they were captives for 70 years, that Babylon ruled for that period. Some -- and their descendants - were held for that period while others were subjected to Babylon while they remained in their respective lands.
And they were not termed as "Jews" that early in their history.
Others are able to agree with me that these statements referred to by the Watchtower Society do not say what the Society claims they were saying.
Were you able to locate the complete statement by Eusebius? I provided the URL.
Doug
Doug Mason
The URL link for Eusebius does not work as I get an Error 404 message on both my Internet Explorer and Googler Chrome browser.
scholar
PeacefulPete has the right idea, the real 70 year curse was on Babylon . Most likely it was written about and these writings were later changed to make it as though it was about the desolation by Babylon
peacefulpete,
Yes, numbers had symbolic meanings for them.
They also used a system known as Gematria, in which each of the 22 letters of the alphabet is assigned a numerical value, as in "the number of his name is 666 (or 616)".
It also put the number at Daniel 9:24 into perspective, representing 7 times greater than the 70 years.
Doug
No one disagrees that they were captives for 70 years, that Babylon ruled for that period. Some -- and their descendants - were held for that period while others were subjected to Babylon while they remained in their respective lands.
Can't quite agree with that Doug. While there were a couple phases of deportations ultimately commoners were apparently not targeted, only influential and royals. How long? that's the issue, it could be calculated a number of ways and none of them makes everyone happy. In the end the number was likely a symbolic number reinterpreted as literal by some in the 2nd century BC when Daniel was actually written.
It is also very interesting to carefully read Dan 9 wherein the author (feigning to be living at the end of the Babylonian exile) has Gabriel give the corrected understanding of the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah. Since Jews living at the 2nd century BC were growing tired of foreign rule and needed a lift, the author has Gabriel declare that the correct "understanding" was actually 70 weeks of years! A very creative use of the passage, maybe the writer himself believed there was something to it as he felt emboldened to make specific prediction about the liberation of his people in a few short years. He was wrong of course but his work has stimulated debates for centuries.
And as far as captivity goes, well most had made a good life in new homes and stayed when there was no opposition.
BTW, thanks for thread.
apologies peacefulpete,
I should have been more specific. Babylon was dominant for 70 years, in the way that the ancients reckoned. Some of the upper echelon were taken to Babylon at the beginning and again later, and some returned when Cyrus told them - including from other nations - to return. Many, as you point out, made a good business (Egibi Bros.) and stayed there.
The Biblical text of Cyrus' letter (not really a "decree") is not a replica of the text on the Cyrus Cylinder. It's a religious rewriting to suit the agenda of the later writers (Chronicles and Ezra).
The names of the people recorded in their Scriptures as leading the initial returnees to Yehud were likely concocted to make a link to Jehoiachin.
This marked the time when the priestly class's desire for power was able to be mounted, now that the royal household was gone. A new entity emerged and they later became known as "Jews".
There was another major change following the destruction of the second temple, although unlike the Jewry witnessed today.
Doug
It would seem that what reassembled after the exile was a different people in many ways. There is much uncertain but it has been suggested that the so-called reforms of Josiah prior to the exile may have been the start of this new, more sophisticated, monotheistic cult of Yahweh. The stories in 2 Kings and further embellished in 2 Chron would have a 'restoration' of 'pure' worship done after discovery of the book of the Law (in Moses hand writing no less). A most unlikely discovery indeed. Its more likely that IF this story has basis in history, that Josiah sought to unify his kingdom under a state religion much like Constantine did years later.
It has also been suggested that the whole Josiah story is a literary creation from the post-exile period as a revisioning of their past consistant with the religio/political situation that existed then. Josiah doesn't appear in any nonbibical source which is a bit surprising given the reforms he is claimed to have done, the Egyptian battle described in the OT and subsequent Egyptian appointment of a vassal King that did actually occur. But then, it is possible.
The unmistakable Babylonian and Persian influences become evident after this period.
