All right -- What does God need 144,000 "rulers" for, anyway?

by logansrun 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    DannyBear,

    Well, I guess it was sort of a rhetorical question I posed. I'm pretty content with my understanding of the 144,00

    Brummie,

    Thanks for the compliment! The official JW stance is that the only knowledge Jah does not really know is the future -- something he chooses to be ignorant of. I wonder if they got this idea from Charles Hartshorne a "process theologian"? Such a stance is intriguing but pregnant with logical inconsistencies. For instance, wouldn't a super-intelligent God capable of omniscience (and they believe He is omniscient in the present moment) be able to forecast with an astounding accuracy what will occur in the future without actually using divine foreknowledge? Give me the exact location of all the molecules on the planet right now along with their speed and temperature and I should be able to give you a completely accurate weather forecast for a year from now without actually looking into the future. Think about that for awhile. (Of course, the Heisenberg uncetainty principle comes up, but that's another matter entirely)

    Bradley

  • Brummie
    Brummie
    For instance, wouldn't a super-intelligent God capable of omniscience (and they believe He is omniscient in the present moment) be able to forecast with an astounding accuracy what will occur in the future without actually using divine foreknowledge? Give me the exact location of all the molecules on the planet right now along with their speed and temperature and I should be able to give you a completely accurate weather forecast for a year from now without actually looking into the future.

    That is an exellent response Logans, I hadnt thought that through either. It smacks too much of intelligence to argue it with a JW..lol.

    (and they believe He is omniscient in the present moment)

    They say they do but I dont think they really do, for instance, they say angels take information to Jehovah, hence what happens in the next hour or so is not necessarily known by Jah. He is provided with information in due time. Say he gets the message that one of the anointed has "fallen" within 2 minutes of it happening, he still didnt know it at the moment of it happening. Hence he is not omniscient by their theology.

    This is typical weak human reasoning, silly but thats how it is with them, everything is human logic and even human logic shows their error.

    Brummie

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Brummie,

    You wrote:

    They say they do but I dont think they really do, for instance, they say angels take information to Jehovah, hence what happens in the next hour or so is not necessarily known by Jah. He is provided with information in due time. Say he gets the message that one of the anointed has "fallen" within 2 minutes of it happening, he still didnt know it at the moment of it happening. Hence he is not omniscient by their theology.

    I have never, ever seen that thought in JW publications. I've never even heard of that thought by some dub whose "speculating." Do you have any material that backs up what you say the Dubs say about God?

    Bradley

    PS -- I know a casual reading of the OT would cause one to think the thought you thought, but the dubs don't think like that...I think!

  • Brummie
    Brummie

    Logan, I will have to research the articles for this one, but I am positive this is what we believed. If they think it through it stands to sense, Jah is not omnipresent, he has locality (not pliedes though )so how does he get the information? The only answer is that it is passed on to him after the event. Can you think of any other way? I'm racking my brains

    I'll get back to you

    Brummie

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Brummie,

    Well, if that is the case it would be possible to actually HIDE from God, wouldn't it? I mean, he doesn't have an inexhaustable supply of angels to report to him. Also, the Bible makes clear, in a passage somewhere (no Bible handy): "The eyes of Jehovah are in ever place, keeping watch on the good ones and the bad."

    Every place means every place. Again, I don't mean to come off as some sort of challenger or anything, but I would be quite surprised to find any WT reference post 1950 which describes the situation the way you do.

    As for what the "omnipresence" of God could mean...I haven't the foggiest. I'm not really sure He exists, remember?

    Bradley

  • Gwydion
    Gwydion

    I think 144,000 was just the largest number that the human writer could think of at the time. He puffed on his pipe by the candle light and said to himself what's a really cool number of people I could say go off to heaven to be princes and rulers. He took another sip of his Mediterranean wine (hiccup). Then he scribbled down the number 144,000 on his scroll never giving it a second thought that a couple thousand years later anybody would be asking so many questions about it. Thanks to some dark ages scribe compiling the "how to control the masses handbook", it got scribbled down in the "keeper" pile of the book that would become today's Bible. Just lovely.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Somewhere an 'inspired' bible writer proclaimed that Jehovah is aware of every 'sparrow that falls from a tree'.

    What kind of convaluted backpedeling will jw's do to rectify this little nugget of inspired wisdom? Need I ask?

    Danny

  • Brummie
    Brummie

    logans its ok, it didnt come off as a challange, sometimes my mind remembers these little oddities and no one else seemed to have picked up on them so I get to questioning whether I misunderstood. Plus the Society has the knack of saying "God is omniscient" in one article and then indirectly denying it in another. let me throw this quote in that demonstrates that they do this in one paragraph:

    "Yes God see's everything....Whether he personally takes note of everything or does so through his vast angelic organisation is besides the point. The effect, the result, is the same: ... The eyes of Jehovah are in everyplace.."

    Watchtower 6/15/77 p355

    See what I mean, on one hand he knows everything, on the next it could be that he got to know it through the angels.

    "But as soon as that first human pair sinned God knew it or learned it because they felt guilty and hid"..

    Watchtower 1/15/64, p52.

    If God was omniscient according to JWs, he would have known before the event happened since he knew the thoughts of men in the "present" tense. But not according to JWs, it was only after.

    This article is from 1938 so predates the 1950s but it is upon this foundation that JWs built their current understanding:

    "Whether His own great mind retains such countless details or whether they are held in the minds of his trusted angels or by some automatic equivalent matters not.."

    Consolation 3/23/38, P38.

    I can give a whole host of pre 1950s odd quotes but I will have to put my researchers hat on for anythnig up to date.

    Brummie

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Well, actually, to be Biblically correct, it might make a little more sense if you understood that the 1000-year reign is going to be by the "144,000" ON THE EARTH while Jesus is on the earth too.

    That's probably the crux of your issue right there and something I agrue, which is how come 144K are up in heaven with everybody else on the earth? I mean, how can they king-priest well that way? Turns out they will be on the earth.

    And the other point is that, indeed, God could read the minds and hearts and make his own decisions, but that leaves us out of the equation compared to self-discovery and free moral agency. It goes along with: Why did God test mankind anyway? Why didn't he just kill Satan and start all over? etc. etc.

    But I agree with the WTS to a degree that actually EXPERIENCING something makes you more sympathetic, and Jesus coming into human form as a perfect man at the first coming and then as an imperfect man at the second coming reflect that. Thus God chose to let these judges decide where to draw the line within the basic guidelines and thus in this way more mercy might be shown.

    But perhaps more importantly, these kings are also "priests". Don't forget what the MILLENNIUM is about. These people will have to be prepared for Satan's final test. So the 144K are there to give individual attention to the world of mankind surviving Armageddon and the children born during the millennium to help them on a human basis to understand God's requirements. So in that sense, they are a blessing. They are dedicated to saving as many of mankind as possible. That's the focus.

    Finally, they don't up to heaven even after the millennium and after Satan is destroyed, but are still here during JUDGMENT DAY which happens after the millennium. That's when the dead, both good and bad, come back to be judged. And God allows the humans to judge. Obviously this has advantages. An ex drug addict or alcoholic will be a lot more understanding that a holy roller who despises drink and makeup and everything else, right? Plus these are "reformed" individuals; those who have had these trials and took steps to overcome them and so they can help others do the same.

    And on yet another plane, these 144K who become the "Bride of Christ" are replacing the fallen "covering cherub" who used to be Christ's wife in heaven and in the position of being God's temple. This fallen angel is depicted as one of the two "covering cherubs" on top of the Ark of the Covenant. The other angel is the archangel, Michael who later became Jesus Christ. After Judgment Day, the 144K receive spiritual bodies and their heavenly reward after all their hard work on the earth for 1000 years plus Judgment Day and they become Christ's special Bride Class among the angels.

    And....per some other comments...since the content of the 144,000 is notably symbolic (i.e. all men, all virgins, all Jews, specifically 12,000 from each tribe), then likely the actual number might be symbolic as well. My belief is that it is some multiple of 144K, probably x 10, since 10 is an earthly number.

    But it can't be too large otherwise there would be more king-priests than people to rule over them.

    JCanon

  • obiwan
    obiwan

    Well with everything being perfect and no more problems, they have to have someone to argue with! lol

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