Hello
Yes, I know, just another example of how idiotic the Watch Tower has been with setting dates in regards to the Second 'Presence' *ahem* VISIBLE RETURN. How shocking none of what was 'expected' came into fruition.
I was speaking to a certain Jehovah's Witness who was quoting Iraneous out of context (suprise surprise) He brought up this:
"Irenaeus { c.130-200 C.E. }: "We may learn through Him [ Christ ] that the Father is above all things. For 'the Father', says He, 'is greater than I.' The Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge." --- Against Heresies, Book II, chapter 28.8
Again TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT! What Iraneous was here referring to WAS the SECOND COMING, the Father excels with respect to knowledge IN THAT ASPECT. Now, here's the thing that my good (non-JW) friend pointed out to me which perhaps will explain things a bit better:
"I noticed that Irenaeus specified- with respect to knowledge.
The Father has a greater knowledge in one area. He knows the time when Jesus will return. To me this is because the Bridegroom in Hebrew wedding ceremonies must prepare a place for their bride and await their Father's inspection before the place is declared done"
Yes, and as you know Jesus is the Bridegroom. The Church is His bride.
I hope that helps :)
O'corse, unbelievers will just reason that it is all a load of crap, and thease controdicting scriptures just proove it, but they refuse to see with eyes of faith!>>>>>
Ahhh, now since your out of the Watchtower you are free to contemplate this further. I'm sort of scratching my head why you would say what the Watchtower does (he was inferior to G-d,,, i.e. the verses where it shows Jesus' willing subordination to the Father while He was incarnate) I've been talking to a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses and this is the same thing they say. Now, I would like to tell you WHY Christians say He is G-d, basically, you can start just by realising that every verse that they say are used improperly by 'trinitarians' are actually the opposite of what they argue. They are absolute in declaring the Son as G-d, and the Watch Tower is completely devious in representing them, and making sure to pound it into people's heads that 'this is no proof that He is G-d' either it's translated incorrectly (whereas the NW is not) or its interpreted incorrectly wotever. If you would be interested now that you can examine other beliefs more freely, could I please tell you why I believe Him to be G-d?
(also they've shamefully misrepresented the early Church Fathers, Polycarp and Ignatious esp. as you probably know, who taught Jesus as G-d and the Holy Spirit as G-d)
Also, if you still have the idea that the doctrine of the 'Trinity' has pagan origins, STOP, it absolutely does NOT, and I can prove it (beyond a reasonable doubt) (or rather nobody can PROVE it) and that it is not Biblical??? ONLY if the SINGLE correct interpretation of the Scriptures on Earth today IS the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION. (or the translation by the Spiritist Johannes Greber) *shivers* hopefully not.
"Not one who is sure he acceptsthe Trinity as of right now, I should not be commenting here, I guess. But, I just wanted to say that if one belives that the Father is superior to the Son, and that they are two seperate persons, the scripture seems easier to understand - simply that God did not as of that time inform Jesus of the day or hour." -Rocketman
Hi Rocketman! That's cool, my goodness I wouldn't expect you to after all you've read throughout the years from the WT. You know this reminds me of something that C.T. Russell said (sorry!) something to the effect of G-d gives us the ability to understand and reason which is true and false of the Bible (!!!!!!!!) and that it is 'Unreasonable' lol that G-d should exist in three persons. First of all, ummm, lots of stuff in the Bible is 'illogical' and 'unreasonable' "now wait a minute, Jesus had density and mass, therefore it is unreasonable to believe that He should walk on the water, the laws of nature tell us that since he has density, he will sink, therefore, that could not be true???!!!" It would be 'unreasonable' 200 years ago to believe that there would be mass air transit, where you could arrive halfway across the world in a matter of hours. Anyways, it's just very silly. I think. I wish C.T. would have read 'Critique of Pure Reason' by Immanuel Kant. Oh well. Anyways, if he had been at all a student of Scriptures, he would have used the laws of hermeneutrics (spelling?) to interpret Scripture, not whether it was 'reasonable' (moron! double moron, the Trinity is 'reasonable') Anyways, what I am trying to say here is one should not look for the presupposition that makes it 'easier' to understand from the Scriptures, but be open to ACCEPT though it may not be easy what they teach. That is not a good way to go about things I fear, And BY THE WAY, it's so funny, every thing I've read on the Trinity by the Watch Tower, makes Christians look like 'oneness pentecostals' or 'modalists' in other words, saying that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the SAME PERSON (that has 'modes' between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!!)!!! Every thing I've read! Hence making a straw man argument to knock down. That is NOT what the bible teaches, it teaches, though I know you won't think so, that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, all SEPARATE PERSONS but ONE G-D, co-equal, co-existent. NOT THE SAME PERSON. The Father is NOT the Son, the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit, but yet, since G-d is infinite, He REASONABLY and BIBLICALLY exists as ONE G-D in three persons. :)
Just look at the Sh'ma
"Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohaynu, Adonai ECHAD"
'Hear Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is One'
(Echad, ONE COMPOSITE, not ONE SINGULAR [which would be 'Yachid'], ECHAD is used to describe a bunch of grapes :)
just look at 'Elohim' (used to describe 'gods' as well as the one true G-D??? a plural term for G-d)
Please look at what I say with new eyes, I know you've probably heard it in the Watch Tower, it's probably been brushed aside as some sort of 'propoganda' but you can decide for yourself if it is of any significance. That is your freedom.
Anyways, Cheers
Myxomatosis
*and we all went to heaven in a little row boat
there was nothing to fear nothing to hide*
-Radiohead 'pyramid song'
