Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong

by purrpurr 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • kepler
    kepler

    This is a topic I can't help but hail in. But I am having trouble with my e-mail link, so I'll have to be brief.

    The material that Perry provides says that the issue of Darius the Mede is one of the more difficult to solve and then labors mightily at it. But there is an answer and it's crucial.

    Look in Thucydides and Herodotus.

    In the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides account of strife among his contemporary 5th century BC Greeks, he states in book 1 section 18.

    "Not many years after the deposition of the tyrants, the battle of Marathon was fought between the Medes and Athenians."

    Who was the king of Persia? Darius.

    Who was his son who shows up ten years later? Xerxes.

    Who described him as the King of the Medes? Herodotus, also cited by Perry's source.

  • kepler
    kepler

    A few sections earlier in Thucydides (Book 1, section or paragraph 13) :

    "Subsequently, the Ionians attained to great naval strength in the reign of Cyrus, the first king of the Persians, and of his son Cambyses, and while they were at war with the former, commanded the sea around Ionia."

    Then in Book 1, paragraph 14)

    "In deed it was only shortly before the Persian war and the death of Darius the successor of Cambyses, that the Sicillian tyrants and Corcyraens aquired any large number of tiremes. For after these there were no navies of any account in Hellas till the expedition of Xerxes."

    Some translations of Thucydides carefully avoid referring to Medes, but it is as clear as day in the Greek and occurs by my count at least 50 times. Maybe the translators just wanted to let sleeping dogs lie.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Perry,

    The Septuagint is not regarded by Jews as a valid representation of Scripture.

    It's version of Daniel in particular was one of the reasons the LXX was rejected (and to this day the Septuagint holds no place of importance in Judaism). There are huge additions in the Septuagint version of Daniel which, when the formalizing of the Jewish canon occurred in which Daniel was eventually placed among others in the Ketuivm (Writings), these Greek additions were excised.

    The idea that Daniel was a prophet is incompatible with our history for, as noted in my previous post, the historical Daniel is supposed have died many years before the Babylonians invaded. (Ezekiel 14.14, 20; 28.3) Daniel is an important historical figure to us Jews, and the conclusions you have come to, while popular with Fundamentalist Christianity, is at odds not only with Judaism, but Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, teachings of the Church of England, Methodists, Presbyterianism, and most others mainstream Christians for this very fact regarding Jewish history.

    The Catholic Church, on the other hand, recognized the Alexandrine Septuagint and its contents as the Old Testament. Because the Book of Daniel appears in the Prophet section of the LXX, the Catholic Church has kept its placement where it appears in that Greek version, including the Greek additions found in the LXX (The Song of the Three Jews, which are additions to chapter 3, the story of Susanna and the Elders, which is marked as chapter 13, and the tale of Daniel, the priest of Bel and the Dragon, which makes up chapter 14).

    When Protestants decided to reject the complete Alexandrine canon of the Hebrew Bible honored by Catholics, they did not immediately remove the texts from their Bibles. Instead they moved them and their additions to a section between the Old and New Testaments, marked "Apocrypha." They left the remaining books in the LXX order however, and some mistakenly made the claim they did this because they were following the approved Jewish canon (which has a different book order). Leaving them in the Catholic book order, many have mistakenly assumed Jews have viewed this book as prophetic since the Catholic order has the book among the prophets.

    There was no "shift" of the book of Daniel to the Writings section around the 5th - 8th century C.E. "as confirmed by Koch" as there has never been formal codification of the books that follow the Hamesh Megillot. These "last books" following Megillot are Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles. They has never been a formal place or order for these last books, so they could never have been moved to a different section as you cite.

    Also, the Qumran texts represent collections of Hebrew texts preserved by a Jewish sect that existed on the outskirts of Judaism. While the find of these texts is quite phenomenal on the philology side of Scripture study, they play little more significance as they also contain a lot works not recognized by mainstream Judaism about the End of Days and how those who originally owned the Qumran texts believed they were God's only true religion that would survive to see paradise restored on the earth.

    Their texts, remarkable as they are, are also the equivalent of someone finding preserved copies of the New World Translation among a few JW publications some 4,000 years from now. It would be remarkable, yes, to find them at that point, but hardly representative of what the rest of Christianity really believes nevertheless. Thus pointing to a version of Scripture, the LXX, that Jews don't find authoritative and the Qumran scrolls to support conclusions that clash with Jewish history of its own figures and the development of its own works of religious literature is an odd way to prove a point.

  • silentbuddha
    silentbuddha

    Perry, your avatar photo makes you look like one of those pastors from a mega church.

    I think the more important / entertaining point here is determining whether or not Daniel was in the lion pit and an angel protected him. After all, that IS the best part of the whole pile of rubbish right???

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    David_Jay, thanks for your illuminating posts. I have a few criticisms though:

    The first verse is a narrative device commonly employed in Semitic literature to tell the reader the stories are not meant to be read as historical. The opening verse states that Babylonian monarch Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem "in the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim, King of Judah." (1.1) However the siege of Jerusalem occurred after the death of Jehoiakim, a death which occurred likely after his own individual capture by the Babylonians prior to their invasion. It is common in the Hebrew Scriptures for authors to take poetic liberties (much like movie makers today) when merely using history as a generic setting.

    Above verses are written in a condensed format. Actually there were three sieges and five deportations during their seventy year servitude. Daniel and his companions were deported during the third/fourth year of Jehoiakim, i.e., 605 BCE (Dan. 1:1; cf. 2 Kings 24:1, 2; Jer. 25:11; 46:2; 2 Chron. 36:23). This deportation would be followed by four major deportations (2 Kings 24:10-16; Jer. 52:28-30). This agrees with the Babylonian Chronicle.

    The Book of Daniel contains no oracles to Israel or Judah. For a book to be considered a valid prophetic message inspired by God it must contain oracles or pronouncements from YHWH to his people. The phrase in most English Bibles in the Prophets is: "Thus sayeth the LORD." The phrase in Hebrew is actually, "Oracle of the LORD." The book of Daniel has no such phrase and none of its visions or "prophecies" are for Israel or Judah. They are all addressed to non-Jews and Gentile nations.

    This must be a modern Jewish development, but whether this has always been the case, remains to be seen. E.g., 1) Dan. 9:24-27 is directed at God’s people and Jerusalem, and 2) the book of Nahum, although one of the prophets, contains an oracle against Nineveh.

    The Septuagint is not regarded by Jews as a valid representation of Scripture.

    Remember, originally the Septuagint was translated by Alexandrian Jews for Alexandrian Jews. Only later, in the first century, were the book replaced by Greek translations that closely followed the MT of today, eg., Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion.

    The idea that Daniel was a prophet is incompatible with our history for, as noted in my previous post, the historical Daniel is supposed have died many years before the Babylonians invaded. (Ezekiel 14.14, 20; 28.3)

    Although Daniel is here included with Job and Noah, this does not mean that Daniel lived in their day. He was a contemporary of Ezekiel who had great respect for him.

    There was no "shift" of the book of Daniel to the Writings section around the 5th - 8th century C.E. "as confirmed by Koch" as there has never been formal codification of the books that follow the Hamesh Megillot. These "last books" following Megillot are Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles.

    The current classification comes from the Masoretes (ca. 8-10th century CE). In the day of Jesus and Josephus, the scripture classification was the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets (cf. Luke 24:44).

    Also, the Qumran texts represent collections of Hebrew texts preserved by a Jewish sect that existed on the outskirts of Judaism.

    Some view the Qumran library to have been collected by the inhabitants of Qumran. Some MSS were added by them, but with the bulk of it would come from Jerusalem, especially the rolls containing Scripture.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Vidqun,

    Thanks for your critique.

    Do note that though I am a Jew, I do not necessarily share the views I've posted that you have worked through. They represent a very brief explanation of certain Jewish theological theories and views but not necessarily my own. They are also not in any to be taken as exhaustive.

    Because of this your very well-written comments have little effect on what I wrote as they aren't original personal views or convictions that I can change. There is, however, far greater explanations with even more pertinent and far more reliable data in multiple Jewish sources, as well as conflicting views.

    Believe me, there are far greater minds than mine who developed such thoughts as I expressed, and your arguments can only be with them as only they can change them or declare you have a point. I cannot change views that aren't my own or that I don't even possess.

    The information was presented to show there are counterpoints to consider. Unlike the JWs who see things in extremes, Judaism acknowledges that there is likely to be alternative views and those yet undiscovered that can only add to a better understanding regarding theology. Things are rarely "one thing or the other, but not both" as in Watchtowerland.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Vidqun,

    I had to walk away due to a telephone call. But I do have one thing to add in conclusion.

    Appreciating your convictions and points, I also don't want you to see this as a cop out on my part. To illustrate how some of your points you presented may not stand under scrutiny, let me demonstrate a mistake you have been making in how you read my statements. You wrote:

    Although Daniel is here included with Job and Noah, this does not mean that Daniel lived in their day. He was a contemporary of Ezekiel who had great respect for him.

    The Scripture texts I cited do not claim that Daniel lived during the time of Job or Noah, nor could that be considered the point. None of these persons listed are considered contemporaries in Judaism or their Scriptures, so how did you arrive at this interpretation of my words?

    Neither did I claim that they were contemporaries in my writing. I merely stated that Daniel is a Jewish hero, and was considered to be one of those heroes before the Babylonian deportation according to Jewish history, Jewish legends, and the Scripture texts from Ezekiel.

    You concluded something due to your point of view. That is natural, but this caused you to project these mistaken views onto my comments and you have reached incorrect conclusions.

    Ask yourself: why did I conclude that David was saying Daniel was a contemporary of Noah and Job? How did I miss the actual point? Could views or habits learned while a JW still be lingering and keeping me from reading texts or comments colored by a particular approach? Could anything else I've concluded be based on a similar misreading, regardless of the cause, and could a more objective reading help me at least comprehend what was originally written and its aim?

    Try to be a little more objective next time to avoid making conclusions never suggested by the material of others. It will help you understand them better, even if you never end up agreeing with them.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    David_Jay, in the end we are all searching for truth, not so? We all have the freedom of putting forth theories, whether our own or of others, for these to be tested by our peers.

    E.g., modern scholars say: “No Old Testament contemporary of the sixth-century Daniel makes any reference to him. The Daniel referred to in Ezekiel (14:14, 20 and 28:3) must have been the ancient hero named Dan’el, whose life story is narrated in the Ugaritic legend of Aqḥat (dating from about the fifteenth century B.C.).”

    I have a problem with above theory. Here are some of my reasons: Dan’el was an idol-worshiper, a drunken party goer, contemplating murderous revenge. Ezekiel, a zealous prophet and the son of a priest, would never have used a Baal-worshiper as a paragon of righteousness and purity.

    E.g., you say: “The idea that Daniel was a prophet is incompatible with our history for, as noted in my previous post, the historical Daniel is supposed have died many years before the Babylonians invaded.” Then you refer us to the following scriptures. (Ezekiel 14.14, 20; 28.3) I have a problem with your statement and the scriptures you use to back up your statement.

    Many modern scholars insist that the persons mentioned in above scriptures are examples from the past and has nothing to do with the writer of the book of Daniel. Note, they use the same scriptures as you do. By the way, here they are:

    CJB Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men were in it- Noach, Dani'el and Iyov- they would by their righteousness save only themselves," says Adonai ELOHIM. (Ezek. 14:14 CJB)

    CJB Ezekiel 14:20 even if Noach, Dani'el and Iyov were in it, as I live," says Adonai ELOHIM, "they would save neither a son nor a daughter; they would save only themselves by their righteousness." (Ezek. 14:20 CJB)

    Ezekiel was to give the Prince of Tyre the following message:

    2 "Human being, tell the prince of Tzor that Adonai ELOHIM says: 'Because you are so proud and have said, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of God, surrounded by the sea"; yet you are a man, not God, even though you think that you think like God.

    3 Sure, you are wiser than Dani'el! No secret can be hidden from you! (Ezek. 28:2-3 CJB)

  • joe134cd
    joe134cd

    It's been a while since I studied the daniel book so I'm going from memory here. I think there was no such word in the ancient Hebrew language for grandson or great grandson. So the term "son of" was used in the sense that belshezzar was a descendent of Nebuchadnezzar. There was literally no word to describe the relation between the 2 monarchs. I guess similar to the term Mc/Mac before a given name in Scotland or Van before a given name in Dutch. I think it's literal translation means son of. Using the same reasoning as Daniel been a Mac Donald or Van Platt dosnt mean that you are literally the son of Platt or Donald but rather that you are a desendant of.

    This is my own thoughts on this. I think Belshezzar mother was either the grand daughter or great grandaughter (with in the direct lineage) of Nebuchadnezzar. So in effect belshezzar was mentioned as been a descendant because he was a bloodline relative,and Nabonidus wasn't. The latter is just my thoughts.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Vidqun,

    See if you can read this correctly.

    The comment I made was that the "Daniel" mentioned in Ezekiel is not the author of the Book of Daniel. You wrote: "Scholars insist that the persons mentioned in above scriptures are examples of the past and has nothing to do with the writer of the book of Daniel." I totally agree, and that is my argument. I don't know why you are finding a problem with a point upon which we both agree.

    My words do not concern whether Daniel was historical, whether or not he was faithful or an idol worshiper, or whether the current legends of Daniel in Judaism have value. I was countering the JW views regarding the Book of Daniel, not making an argument for a real Daniel or claiming he was a good man. For all I know the Daniel you are speaking of was an idol worshiper. I don't know if there was a historical Daniel, personally speaking.

    So I still don't know how you came up with conclusions that I was speaking against the conclusions you have come up with. I wasn't. They are quite identitical. All I can think of is that you were not reading them in full context, perhaps mistook that my position was supportive of something else and this colored your reading to misunderstand the whole thing.

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