Stay "in" and help...or get out no matter what the cost?

by onacruse 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  onacruse

  chester :

  “That which is made crooked cannot be made straight.”—Ecclesiastes 1:15

  You raise a very good question. Should one stay in the WTS, if only in anticipation of and to be able to support change and improvement...or should one leave, as if the WTS is an "old wineskin" beyond hope of patching? (Matt. 9:17)

  I've not yet resolved this question. On the one hand, the history and sociology of religions tells me that the WTS is here to stay, that changes will perforce occur, and that those changes will most likely spring from the grass-roots level. In that case, perhaps there is indeed something to be salvaged, and those who manage to stay "in" will be in a better position to facilitate those changes. On the other hand, the WTS may be so bad that it deserves nothing less than to be destroyed, and if so I would be remiss if I didn't do everything in my power to get as many as possible to leave, and to challenge anybody who for any reason (including family) chooses to stay in.

  Craig

  PS: This came from http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/54599/1.ashx That was a welcome thread, so I thought that it would be better to continue this question over here as a separate topic.
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  Winston Smith :>D

  “Get out of her my people!”

  Of late I have come to the conclusion that the WTS is the Anti-Christ. I don’t say that lightly or in jest either.

  They deny Jesus. We can’t pray directly to Jesus, but it has to be through Jesus.

  You know what, if you go through something you are bypassing it. And the WTS trains us to bypass Jesus, and he is supposed to be the mediator between God and men.

  Plus the WTS thinks that being hated by the world proves that they are Jesus disciples.

  Wrong.

  Matt 24: says that Jesus’ disciples would be hated on account of Jesus' name.

  When is the last time you have ever heard someone refer to a JW as Christian or think that they even believe in Jesus?

  No, usually a householder will say, “Hey, the Watchtower is here!” or “A Jehover is at our door.”

  No, the WTS and Christ have no association in the mind of the world. Therefore the WTS cannot be hated by the world on account of Jesus’ name.

  Just these simple points alone really demonstrate how far removed the WTS is from any strains of Christianity.

  It is truly an evil cult. Evil, because they are not doing it mainly for money, fame, or the other usual scam reasons. The truth is that it is run by men who really believe in all of the shat that they print in the WT. That enough is truly scary to me and borders on delusional thinking IMHO.

  Winston.
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  integ

  Winston,

  Allow me to play devils' advocate for a moment, and say that the Watchtower can rightly say they are "hated" on account of Jesus' name when BECAUSE of the fact they ARE NOT considered to be people who hold Jesus in as high esteem (Ultimate God Status) as those of other "Christian" religions, then that is one of the reasons they are "hated" on account of His name. It can truly be said that there are a lot of Christians who hate the Witnesses solely because of this...In other words..."On account of his name" or the lack thereof. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

  Thanks,

  Integ.
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  Euphemism

  Before I read Crisis of Conscience, I thought about staying and trying subtly to promote reform. I do agree with onacruse that the WTS will undoubtedly change over time.

  But I decided that I simply couldn't advocate that anyone join--or stay in--the WTS. I see so many people whose lives are being messed up by WTS rules, I can't conscientiously put myself in the position of being these people's spiritual advisor, and not pointing out the most obvious solution to their problems... leaving the dubs.
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  Winston Smith :>D

  integ,

  That's an interesting take on the 'hated because of his name' approach. I never thought it like that. I could see a good dub saying this I guess.

  Thx,

  Winston.
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  Buster

  Hey, Craig.

  I think the only reason to "Stay 'in' and help" is to "Stay 'in' and help get your family out." Lots of folks that post here are out. It seems most of their families are out. But my guts turn inside out when I read about the familes that are torn apart. The stories are too numerous and too darn familiar: daughter won't let parents see grandchildren, parents treat child like a leper, and seemingly endless variations on the theme.

  In the past week or so we've seen several threads by our friends asking for a solution, or at least advice. One thing is clear, we don't seem to have much to say that is very promising.

  My point is this: Since it is so difficult to get your family out, and failure to do so can leave you without them, then if you can get them out, you gotta count your blessings and leave the rest behind.

  - Cliff
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  Noumenon

  "The Watchtower is the Antichrist"

  It may be full of dodgy stuff, and might not give Jesus enough credit, but hardly THE antichrist...

  ...fair go. Keep it in perspective.
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  onacruse

  Winston, integ and Noumenon: the interplay of your comments rightly indicates that answering this question from a Biblical perspective is not at all an easy task. At the very least, one could take the Scriptural position that "it's up to God to act against the WTS, if and when He sees fit." In that case, we'd be more than simply immobilized; we'd be positively prohibited from taking any pre-emptive or subversive action against the WTS. imo, using the Bible as the sole determining guideline will not resolve this, and why I tried to present it more as a social and historical issue.

  What, then, about personal integrity? Is "playing false to ones convictions" (hypocrisy) always bad? Take, for example, what Euphemism says:

  I can't conscientiously put myself in the position of being these people's spiritual advisor, and not pointing out the most obvious solution to their problems... leaving the dubs.

  We know many JWs who are doing just that: they are maintaining their "acceptable" status in the org while at the same time influencing other JWs to, at the least, become marginalized, and perhaps even to muster the courage to leave. Technically, this is hypocrisy. In this case, I'd say hypocrisy is good.

  Buster:

  you gotta count your blessings and leave the rest behind.

  Should one even try, if possible for him/her, to stay in for the purpose of helping "the rest?" Is there some ethical standard that we can point to that condemns such a choice, and whereby we can categorically say "Get out, get out, get out of her, each and every one of you!"?

  Craig
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  joe_from_kokomo

  Funny, but we left in early May, and our Witness relates all hammered us with the question, "If you think that the Society is so bad, and so wrong, why aren't you trying to convince us of this and get us to leave, too?"

  Of course, we knew this was just a rhetorical trick on the part of the 3 sisters who tried this same tactic on my wife. It was pure B.S. But, naturally, we wanted nothing more than to convince them to "flee, and get out of her, my people, stop touching the unclean thing".
  
  Ultimately, it is a personal choice. We chose not to create divisions, until we get official word from the Society. (Then, things may change, and we may put flyers on the windows of the cars in the parking lot...)

  But, I have to wonder if the scriptures in Ezekiel about bloodguilt don't also apply here...

  In any case, for me, it was impossible to keep up the face of hypocrisy. It was impossible to do door-to-door. The last 6 months of field service reports were pure fiction, and I detest being forced to lie about anything...

  If you are a truth seeker, eventually, you will have to Face the Facts. The Truth will set you Free... (some pun intended).
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  Pleasuredome

  no matter how much you try to reform a pile of $hit, it will always remain a pile of $hit.