The Idiocy of the Universal Sovreignty Issue

by Black Man 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  happyout

  Hi, Noumenon, and welcome to the board,

  I love the kind, but condescending tone of your message. "You are also casting aspersions on God's character, implying that he should have done something about it all long ago. This is a small-minded attitude. How dangerous for someone to think like this, to dare question the Almighty Creator himself, who's ways and thoughts are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth."

  That's like watching a child get beaten and killed and saying "how dare us question the parent, they know this child better than we do".

  I would also like to gently point out that many people such as yourself who believe that the Bible is God's word and his only communication with humans are uneducated about the history of the book. Take for instance the story of Moses and the 10 commandments. These were given to him directly from God, yes? Interesting then, that a book called The Egyptian Book of the Dead has pretty much the exact same "commandments" written in it, and yet the book is far far older than the Bible. Check it out sometime, if, of course, you aren't afraid of enlightenment.

  Also, realize that to many people who have read about a loving God who cherishes his children, it makes no sense that he would not save them. Surely you can understand that? Wouldn't you save your child? And who was that God in the first part of the bible who was always instructing people to be killed? In some cases, simply because they lived on the land he supposedly wanted to give to his people. Did he wave his wand and miraculously move the indigenous people out? Nope, they had to be destroyed "man, woman, and child". Not a very nice fella, huh?

  Happyout (always happy to welcome a new member)
• 

  run dont walk

  I can't remember the person's name that stated during the US/Iraq War that ........

  "If Saddam Hussein is alive, he is the worst general of all time."

  Well, I will take some heat for this comment but here it goes .......

  If Jehovah is alive, he then is the worst GOD of all time !!!!!!!!!

  Suffering proves nothing.

  And remember after Armageddon and all of us have been destroyed, Satan will still be kicking, because he will be saved, and then let loose again to try again (after the 1000 year reign of Christ, then let loose again for a short time). So all of us get killed at Armageddon, and he already has his pass to get thru. That sounds fair, don't you think ???????
• 

  Mr. Kim

  BM,

  OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH...WHAT YOU SAID!

  I felt the vibes from above here in Colorado.........................
• 

  funkyderek

  I think the issues are real and are there, just as the Society have explained them. They are only saying what the bible reveals. I think to question these fundamental issues is to cast doubt on whether God in fact exists, whether the bible is inspired or not (a story, you say?), whether the Devil is real. Your comments tell me you are struggling with these things also. Perhaps you need to answer those questions for yourself once and for all before you can understand the real issue of why does god allow wickedness.

  Good point. The absurdity of the Bible does indeed cast serious doubts on its veracity.

  You are also casting aspersions on God's character, implying that he should have done something about it all long ago. This is a small-minded attitude. How dangerous for someone to think like this, to dare question the Almighty Creator himself, who's ways and thoughts are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth.

  Would you be as cautious about questioning Quetzalcoatl and his need for human sacrifices or is it only YHWH who cannot be challenged? The Bible certainly claims that YHWH's thoughts are higher than ours, but they're remarkably similar to what one might expect if they were made up by bronze age goatherds.

  I'm reminded of the scripture where it says 'who can point their finger at him and ask 'what have you been doing'".

  From the book of Job, if I'm not mistaken. A perfect microcosm of the sovreignty issue. For a bet, God allows one of his most faithful servants to be tortured, his property stolen or destroyed, his ten children killed. Job was right to point the finger. He didn't deserve to be treated like that.

  This is the slippery slope of foolish pride and rebellion of a dark heart craving independence from God control in any form at all.

  No, it's a sign that rational thought has begun to replace primitive superstititon.

  It's all about free will, and why we should do things God's way, or just our way. It gets to the core of what life's meaning is all about. Just why does God (assuming you really believe in him!) allow wickedness to exist? Why has he not stepped in until now? There must be reasons and answers to such profound questions, and yes the bible answers them. The Society, while wrong on many things, have got these prime things right, and I think someone is throwing the baby out with the water to question all this.

  No, the reasons given are utterly nonsensical. You can't just declare them to be right. They're absurd and logically inconsistent. They're not complicated or "beyond our understanding", they're simplistic and primitive.

  I have no problem at all with the WBTS's teachings on these things, and in fact instead of knocking them I think these issues they bring to light are part of the few central beliefs they have spot on. Thank you early bible students and JW's for that at least. Thank Jehovah for telling us life's meaning in his holy Word the bible, and for giving us purpose and a hope for the future.

  So what is life's meaning according to the Bible? To be a slave to the tyrant god YHWH? What's the hope for the future? Being his slave forever?
• 

  City Fan

  Deut 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

  Ezek 18:20 "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father"

  So which is it to be. Do we suffer because of what Adam did or will Yahweh apply his own council above?
• 

  berylblue

  And remember after Armageddon and all of us have been destroyed, Satan will still be kicking, because he will be saved, and then let loose again to try again (after the 1000 year reign of Christ, then let loose again for a short time). So all of us get killed at Armageddon, and he already has his pass to get thru. That sounds fair, don't you think ???????

  Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  This statement is, quite frankly, one of the most brilliant observations I have come across in a long time. I never thought of it like that. Truly mind boggling.

  Rosemarie
• 

  berylblue

  Deut 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

  Ezek 18:20 "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father"

  But what about those scriptures where God talks about "getting even" (my words) with succeeding generations for a father's iniquity? (Please keep in mind that I never knew the Bible well, and I may well be wrong about the existence of any such scripture.) The reason I think there is such a scripture is that I remember thinking that the Bible was contradicting itself. Of course, I mentioned it to no one.

  Rosemarie
• 

  City Fan

  You're right berylblue, there are several scriptures that say the opposite of the two I mentioned. I wish god would make up his mind.
• 

  berylblue

  "Now, listen, kids, I know things have been hell since the next door neighbor's kid, Joe Angelo, has broken in here and has been teasing, torturing, raping and killing some of you, but you just have to put up with it. If I throw him out now, you might think I'm weak (by misusing my superior strength) and unfair. THEN what will my great-great-great-great grandchildren think of me?
  
  Joe's saying I'm a tyrant, and that none of you love me, and I gotta prove he's wrong. What's a few months of hell in the scheme of things? Eventually this will be over, and none of you will think of it anymore.
  

  Besides, what about the Angelo family next door? None of them have gone bad, and now they're watching to see how I handle this.

  Just keep in mind, while Joe is beating the hell out of you, that this is for the good of the ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD. For all time, I will be remembered as a just and loving father because I didn't kick Joe's butt at the first sign of his psychotic tendencies."
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  Thunder Rider

  No, it's a sign that rational thought has begun to replace primitive superstititon.

  Perfectly stated!

  While the creator has a "right" to manage his creations as he sees fit. He has basicaly decided to bend to the whim of an unruly teenager as Satan is one of his heavenly children that copped an attitude. We are supposed to be created in his image and embued with aspirations to reflect his Godly qualities, namely love, justice, wisdom and power. Even as imperfect humans we love our creations, our children, and in some cases die that they might live. We seek justice for them, demanding that those that hurt our children are punished. We exercise wisdom by finding ways to make our childrens lives easier and more fulfilling with advances in medecine, technology and education. We do everything in our power to see to it that they get the best we can provide for them.

  The creator seems to have gotten stuck on the Power thing, but what use is being all powerful if you dont use your power for the benefit of what is most precious to you? How can you love someone and allow then to suffer for your "Good Name"? What justice is there in the suffering of innocents for personal satisfaction? What wisdom is exercised in allowing an enemy to spoil your greatest achievment, to save face? What good is universal sovreignty held hostage?

  We all need to choose to do the right thing. Would only that those that could make changes on a global scale see fit to act accordingly.

  Thunder