Why Do You No Longer Believe in God? (page 20)

StarTrekAngel

Agreed. If you are trying to convince someone else, you better have tangible evidence. I am talking about personal belief.

A personal belief does not necessarily requires evidence or at least the evidence does not need to be of a science nature. People believe in karma and the only evidence they have are the few times were karma apparently got them even with some one else, despite not being any tangible evidence that karma exists and is not reproducible on demand.

There are people here who say they respect the belief of others. Posting something about your personal belief does not automatically means you are trying to convince others. Yet, they go in there and begin to demand proof of claim. In essence, they end up doing the exact thing they claim to hate about believers. If you think a certain topic is stupid or has no evidence or foundation, simply stay out of it.

True, you are free to express your opinion. Expressing your opinion would be stating something like "I don't believe in karma because there is no evidence of it", another very different is to state "I don't believe in karma and you are an idiot for believing in fantasies and fiction". You are also entitled to think that those that believe are idiots, but if that is what you want to express, start a new thread about the stupidity of unfounded belief. Let the others continue with their lives.

Insisting on the contrary only shows an outwardly expression of your misery. I can understand where it comes from. You don't exit cults without scars, wether you like to admit it or not. But stumping on others just because of what they believe, is not going to gain you anything. Is just going to consume you for no reason whatsoever. That is off course, provided that their belief is not actually damaging you personally.

cofty

Insisting on the contrary only shows an outwardly expression of your misery.

Bullshit amateur psychology.

How about some people just care about truth. We are on a religious discussion forum where it is entirely reasonable to scrutinise religious beliefs.

another very different is to state "I don't believe in karma and you are an idiot for believing in fantasies and fiction

Who says that? Who is this straw man?

Whenever a rational person exposes an irrational superstition the faithful take it as a personal attack and the agnostics get offended on behalf of the superstitious.

If you join in a debate about the truth of your most cherished superstitions you better put your big boy pants on first.

Viviane

You still haven't answered bohm.

Absolutely I did, with a rather long answer, in fact, explaining why I didn't change anything that EoM wrote and why I worded the question the way I did.

Continuing to deny that is simply dishonesty.

She ignores people who answer her with facts and plays debating tricks with words.

Nope, I answered bohm in great detail with very specific words to illustrate a point. That you don't like understand that is irrelevant to the fact.

Viviane

I am talking about personal belief.

Why would I personally have less standards than I expect others to have?

If you think a certain topic is stupid or has no evidence or foundation, simply stay out of it.

So, you tell us what to do and then....

Let the others continue with their lives.

Say to leave other people alone and let them do what they way. Why are you not consistent?

Insisting on the contrary only shows an outwardly expression of your misery.

So, after complaining about some people calling other people idiots, you decide to tell people they are miserable?

Seriously, you are doing everything you are complaining about. Did you not notice that?

StarTrekAngel

I am all for caring about the truth. May be some people don't. As long as they don't try to push their truth on me, I am fine with them living on what others would consider a fairy tale. You see I am not even speaking on my behalf. I am speaking on behalf of others here that I care about. I may totally agree with your statements cofty and I have read some great stuff from you. What I am saying is that there needs to be respect for the belief of others.

In a hypothetical situation, If they engage you in a discussion and you engage them back, then I don't see why would you be exempt from providing their own proof. Just like they had a choice of engaging you, you also had a choice. If you take it, and they demand your proof, then I believe you own it to your ideals to provide it. If you believe the discussion is totally idiotic and there is no point on arguing, then go and live your life to the fullest. How would that affect your cause for truth?

At the end, I would base it on the fact that the only thing that is ever achieved in this situations is to disrupt the intents of the person who started the thread. There is a handful of people here that tend to do that. The fact that they are the minority, and the fact that they seem attracted to this kind of discussion, shows, in my humble opinion, that they can not accept that there are people out there that should be entitled to believe in fairy tales if they choose to. Is not me, not anymore. No more fairy tales for me. But lets also not forget we ALL were once there.

I agree, someone who lives in a fairy tale can impact others if they manage to attract followers. That is where the "convincing" part comes in. But this truth also applies to those at the other end of the spectrum. I don't care how empirical evidence you can gather. Even when you have a solid foundation for your claim, it doesn't entitle you to convince others either. I am not saying that is what you are doing cofty, but in such cases, the respectful thing to do is to drop your evidence and let others draw their conclusions.

Amateurish psychology? Profanity is what I find amateurish. But that is just my personal opinion and that is why I say it in first person. No one needs to agree with me on that and I don't plan to convince anyone of it.

cappytan

If you think a certain topic is stupid or has no evidence or foundation, simply stay out of it.

How about when someone says, "Obama is a Kenyan! His birth certificate is fake!"

That topic is stupid and has no evidence or foundation to support it. But we should "simply stay out of it?" We should let this person continue to spew beliefs that are harmful and not based on evidence continue to do so and possibly mislead others? We should let them go unchallenged without demanding evidence for their extraordinary claim?

Hell no. I will not stand by and I will not stay out of it.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke (supposedly)

StarTrekAngel

Sure Viviane. That is exactly what I am talking about. Your standards needs to be everyone else's standards. Unless of course you need to bash someone. Then the standards are out the window.

I spoke in general terms, but if the shoe fits...

StarTrekAngel

Well I didn't say to do nothing. I would say that rather than disrupting someone else thread, start your own. Why are we not then, all of us going over to the a birthers forum and combating that?

Besides, I am referring to a particular thread or topic. I am not saying, for example, that the WT is entitled to continue spreading their lies. At the very least I would say they are entitled to spread their belief so long they would allow the rest of us to discuss it openly without retaliation. That is much bigger than a thread on a forum.

Viviane

That is off course, provided that their belief is not actually damaging you personally.

Yet you recently spoke on others behalf to tell them how to behave and that they were miserable.

What I am saying is that there needs to be respect for the belief of others.

Do you respect the beliefs of NAMBLA? Anti-vaxxers? Religious people who deny their children life saving medical care?

If you take it, and they demand your proof, then I believe you own it to your ideals to provide it.

Of course. Who has said otherwise?

I am not saying that is what you are doing cofty, but in such cases, the respectful thing to do is to drop your evidence and let others draw their conclusions.

Why is it respectful to deny evidence and reality?

That is exactly what I am talking about. Your standards needs to be everyone else's standards. Unless of course you need to bash someone. Then the standards are out the window.

Huh? I asked why I should expect others to require evidence but not need it myself. You're off in makes-no-sense land rambling.

cappytan

Why are we not then, all of us going over to the a birthers forum and combating that?

Because we're here. I was using Birthers as an example. What these theists are doing is the same as if you asked a Birther for proof of their claims and then they said, "You prove that we're wrong."

When someone makes an extraordinary claim, it shouldn't be verboten to ask them to back it up with some evidence.

Saying that there is a being outside of the space time continuum that is all powerful and that he created the universe in which we live and everything in it is an even more extraordinary claim than what the birthers are asserting.

Why do people get so upset when you ask them for proof of that claim?

Why Do You No Longer Believe in God?

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