HOMOSEXUAL CLERGY

by MacHislopp 30 Replies latest social relationships

  • XJWBill
    XJWBill

    You go, Jim! Haven't read your essay yet, but I will.

    My take on the Scriptures, though, is that Moses and Paul were great men, but just had no clue, no concept, of actual love between two men--as opposed to screwing around.

    And hey, Logical, here's a clue for you: Our Lord never said a word about it, one way or the other. I've always thought that was a very interesting omission on His part.

    And it really isn't very "logical" is it, to casually equate sex and murder, do you think?

    And while we're at it, brother, I remember reading somewhere (--?--)that God absolutely hates oral sex, anal sex, nekkid pictures, and masturbation. In light of all that, could we see YOUR sexual resume, please? You don't mind sharing, do you?

    Bill

    "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

  • logical
    logical

    Jesus never said anything... so, is the Revelation false? Is John a false prophet? Was Jesus lying?

    You are as bad as the organisation(s) you have left, twisting scriptures to justify your evils.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    Actually, XJWBill, what Moses & Paul were speaking about was fertility ritual, not loving relationships. The passages commonly referred to in the Bible which supposedly condemn homosexuality were in fact stern warnings not to engage in pagan ritual and had nothing whatsoever to do with one's sexual orientation.

    For example, the word commonly mistranslated from the original Greek as "men who lie with men", etc. is a noun. Ask anyone who knows early Greek - the ancient Greeks expressed homosexuality only as a verb.

    I might add, neither Moses, Paul, nor Jesus Christ spoke English. The language did not exist when they lived and when these words were recorded. Why, then, would anyone exclusively trust latter-day translations without examining the scriptures in their original form? As Logical himself accurately points out: "The Bible warns against those who call right 'wrong' and wrong 'right'".

  • logical
    logical

    Im sure I can stretch certain scriptures to allow me to kill people.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    Uh-huh. You mean like the sinners who were stoned.... or were they just doing good drugs?
    Queen to queen's pawn three... your move.

  • XJWBill
    XJWBill

    Jim, at one time--gosh, 15 years or so ago now--I tried to do a little study on this topic using an interlinear and a Greek lexicon. However, never having studied Greek (if I were independently wealthy, it would be fun to go to seminary just to learn to read the Bible in the original language), I am not sure how accurate my understanding was, so I will have to defer to you on this point of grammar.

    The main point I seem to remember getting out of it was that in the ancient world, there were--how can I say this politely on a public board?--"doers" and "doees," tops and bottoms, typically a grown man and an adolescent boy. And in some places, like Athens or Sparta, this sort of thing was an expected part of growing up for boys--a married man would pick a boy to "raise" and the relationship would include the man's teaching the boy military arts and other manly stuff.

    But all of that research was a long time ago, and depends on understanding the whole culture of the Mediterranean world in those days. Your assertion about religious rites and sex is probably true, too. But for me it all comes back around to what I said before--what Paul was talking about is NOT the same thing as what I and my partner have now--a loving, faithful, monogamous union.

    To everybody else on this board: if I'm wrong, why don't you just let God judge my case? It will save you so many sleepless nights.

    BTW Jim, have you read Boswell's "Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe"? Pretty interesting, isn't it, that the Church "married" men for many centuries--even had numerous official liturgies for it--then somehow got "new light" and started ripping the liturgies out of prayer books and rewriting the official history? Say, wait a minute--that sounds like---------------!!!!!!!

    ;-) Peace, y'all.

    Bill

    "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

  • logical
    logical

    When I see gay people, particularly men, it makes me sick. Sick that people can abuse nature like that.

    What makes it even worse is the way they call Jah a liar, by saying it is natural. When it is not.

    You are evil and sick the way you justify your wrong with God's word. Cant you just admit you are sick dirty men who need help? Or is that too much for you, so set in your evil ways that change hurts so much you have to find a way of making the wrong you are so happy doing right?

  • Had Enough
    Had Enough

    Hello SanFranciscoJim:

    I'm so glad you brought up this subject of how the Biblical passages supposedly condemning homosexuality can be explained by ones supporting it. I haven't time right now but I will look into your site to see your views.

    I've been thinking for days now of posting a question to you and put it up for discussion on how you explain the scriptures we all, as JWs, learned 'condemning' gay sex. I just didn't want to open a can of worms and bring unnecessary hurt to you so I just kept thinking about how to open up the subject.

    I admit I had the typical viewpoint taught by the JWs supposedly upheld by the scriptures. Now I have come to see that in many other instances, the translations of the original meanings were slanted by Fred Franz's wording.

    So I welcome the chance to look into this subject deeper because, I now enjoy the freedom to seek out the truth. I feel like a sponge wanting to know more about what truth was kept from me for all my life and I want to be fair and understanding to all.

    Thank you,

    Had Enough

  • safe4kids
    safe4kids

    Jim,
    Thanks for the information...when I get a chance, I'll check out your site but I have to agree with the stupidity of the mindset people have today that whatever their translation says must be accurate...is it impossible to accept that translators may have erred?? Human nature being what it is, I would imagine those who have translated the bible into contemporary languages could not help but to be influenced by their own beliefs...

    LOGICAL:
    I understand that you are probably a very young person...obviously a very unhappy person and my heart goes out to you. But let me share something with you: a person who is so deeply homophobic almost ALWAYS is that way because they cannot bear to deal with their own feelings of attraction for others of their own sex. To put it plainly, homophobia generally exists in a person because they have homosexual feelings; is there something you are in denial about that you want to share with us?
    Secondly, and I may come under fire from certain ones but I have a hard time believing the bible is anything but a mixture of history, myth, and creative imaginings. What I do know is that it is responsible for a great deal of human suffering. "Call Jah a liar"...part of your post Logical...hard to know if he's a liar or not since I've never heard him say anything....

    You might be happier if you stop attacking people and let them help you...

    Safe

    <"A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.">

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    XJWBill, yes I have read Boswell. His work is exceptionally well researched and factually presented. If you haven't yet read it, I also highly recommend his work "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality".
    My father was a Presbyterian minister, a graduate of Princeton Seminary (I was the only person in my family to ever become a JW), so I was exposed to the scriptures in their original languages from a very early age. I also find Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible an indispensible tool in studying the scriptures in their original form.

    Had Enough, I would welcome a discussion thread on the origin of the supposed Biblical condemnation of homosexuality. Meanwhile, I would suggest having a look at the website of Dr. Rembert Truluck, who is the author of the book "Steps to Recovery From Bible Abuse". The link is:
    * http://www.truluck.com/

    Safe4Kids, as regards Logical's tirade, I am actually indebted to him, for he has graphically demonstrated once again the ugliness of hatred and bigotry masquerading as "Christian love".

    Finally, Logical, as follow up to Safe4Kids' posting, you may find interest with this article, posted at http://www.shpm.com/articles/glb/glbtphobia.html as follows:

    "Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?
    by Henry E. Adams, Ph.D., Lester W. Wright, Jr., Ph.D. and Bethany A. Lohr

    New Study Links Homophobia with Homosexual arousal

    Questions Whether It Is Latent Homosexuality Or A Response to Anxiety

    Psychoanalytic theory holds that homophobia --the fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort and aversion that some ostensibly heterosexual people hold for gay individuals -- is the result of repressed homosexual urges that the person is either unaware of or denies. A study appearing in the August issue of the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, published by the American Psychological Association (APA), provides new empirical evidence that is consistent with that theory.

    Researchers at the University of Georgia conducted an experiment involving 35 homophobic men and 29 non-homophobic men as measured by the Index of Homophobia scale. All the participants selected for the study described themselves as exclusively heterosexual both in terms of sexual arousal and experience.

    Each participant was exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual and lesbian videotapes (but not necessarily in that order). Their degree of sexual arousal was measured by penile plethysmography, which precisely measures and records male tumescence.

    Men in both groups were aroused by about the same degree by the video depicting heterosexual sexual behavior and by the video showing two women engaged in sexual behavior. The only significant difference in degree of arousal between the two groups occurred when they viewed the video depicting male homosexual sex: "The homophobic men showed a significant increase in penile circumference to the male homosexual video, but the control [non-homophobic] men did not."

    Broken down further, the measurements showed that while 66% of the non-homophobic group showed no significant tumescence while watching the male homosexual video, only 20% of the homophobic men showed little or no evidence of arousal. Similarly, while 24% of the non-homophobic men showed definite tumescence while watching the homosexual video, 54% of the homophobic men did.

    When asked to give their own subjective assessment of the degree to which they were aroused by watching each of the three videos, men in both groups gave answers that tracked fairly closely with the results of the objective physiological measurement, with one exception: the homophobic men significantly underestimated their degree of arousal by the male homosexual video.

    Do these findings mean, then, that homophobia in men is a reaction to repressed homosexual urges, as psychoanalysis theorizes? While their findings are consistent with that theory, the authors note that there is another, competing theoretical explanation: anxiety. According to this theory, viewing the male homosexual videotape may have caused negative emotions (such as anxiety) in the homophobic men, but not in the non-homophobic men. As the authors note, "anxiety has been shown to enhance arousal and erection," and so it is also possible that "a response to homosexual stimuli [in these men] is a function of the threat condition rather than sexual arousal per se. These competing notions can and should be evaluated by future research."

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