Help!! Learn from the Great Teacher book...and some legal advice....

by Bona Dea 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Bona Dea

  Hello...

  I don't really know if this has been posted yet. I know there are quite a few postings regarding the release of the new "childrens" book at this years convention but I don't know if any of them have focused on the articles I've quoted here. If so, sorry for the repeat. Well, I've been looking through this book and I have some questions.

  I've posted some about my personal life, but for those who haven't had the pleasure of reading my previous posts, I'll give a brief. As of right now, my husband and I are still living together, but he has told me he wants a divorce. He was baptized at the July convention. Two weeks before he was baptized he told me he was no longer happy, and he thought we needed to seek divorce, but he would give me time to find a job (I am currently a stay-at-home-mom). So, basically we are in some sort of bizarre limbo here. We have pretty much agreed on all the material things, the house, the cars, the money...it's just custody of the kids we can't agree on.

  I am trying to be objective here, and that is a very difficult thing to do when you are slap-dab in the middle of a situation. Recently, my kids have started this "mommy I don't want you to die" stuff and telling me that "I need to know about Jehovah and wickedness", the latter coming from my 5-year-old daughter. I can only imagine the junk that is being pummeled into their tiny impressionable little minds by my husband. I am trying to determine which would be more traumatic for my children: the possiblity of rarely seeing their father (I say possibility because even if I do try to gain full custody with minimal visitation for him, I may not get it), or growing up having their mom and everyone around them demonized constantly, having to contend with the guilt that this religion loads on its followers,and having their conscience seared to the point that they question whether or not they should join the YMCA, have a girlfriend, have a friend who is not a witness, do a worksheet passed out in class because it has a christmas tree on it, or be around me because I am agnostic...and my god is not "Jehovah". I am scared of losing my kids forever to this religion, but I don't want to take them away from their father. I don't know what to do. Right now, I don't even have a job..I don't even know how I will go about paying an attorney, and then I don't even know how I would go about proving that being with their father may not be in their best interest...because this is something that I'm not even sure of.

  Anyway, back to the book. My husband wanted to start reading to them from the new Learn from the Great Teacher book. Well, I told him that I rather he didn't until I looked through it. I was aware of some of the things in it, such as the bit on child abuse (pgs 170-171) and the image on pg 243, but after just a few minutes of browsing through it, I found a few other things that bothered me immensely. I'm posting them here, and was curious if anyone on this forum may would know if this would make a difference in a court of law. Maybe with a psychiatric evaluation, I dunno. I was just very disturbed by what I read.

  I wish I had scans, but I do not, and the pictures are worth a thousand words...My thoughts are in red:::

  160-161, pic shows a kid being pointed at by all his classmates who are holding gifts. The caption says, "How might you find yourself in a situation similar to that of Peter". Here is a bit of what the surrounding article, entitled "Help to Overcome our Fears":

  "...Now let's think of something that could happen to us that is like what happened to Peter. Suppose you are in a classroom when others start to say bad things about people sho do not salute the flag or who do not celebrate Christmas. Then what if someone turns tro you and asks:"Is it true you don't salute the flag?" Or others say:"We hear you don't even celebrate Christmas!" Would you be afraid to tell the truth? -- Would you be tempted to lie, as Peter did? --

  Afterward, Peter was very sorry that he had denied knowing Jesus...."

  This just reeks of blame, shame, and guilt. It likens lying (which is a bad enough implication in and of itself) in situations like this to denying Jesus. The advice it gives kids to keep this from happening to them is to pray more and to listen more carefully at their "christian meeting"...implying that if this does happen to them that it is because of some lack of spirituality on their part...

  pg 214, no pic...but very interesting article, entitled "Children who make God Happy". I could probably stop right there and let you guys just imagine the information found in this article, but I'm just gonna pull out a little bit that bothered me:

  "Where do we learn things about God hat we can talk to others about? -- From our Bible study at home. But we learn more at the place where God's people meet to study {the Kingdom Hall? rright..}. But how can we tell who are his people?--

  Well, what do the people do at their meetings {as if any of the young people at the KH have ever set foot in another church to know this answer first-hand}? Do they really teach what is in the bible? Do they read it and discuss it? That is how we listen to God, isn't it?-- And at Christian meetings we would expect to hear what God says, wouldn't we?-- But what if people say that you do not have to live the way the Bible says {in other words, "What if people say that you do not have to live the way that we tell you the Bible says you should?"}." Would you say that they are God's people?--

  Here is something else to think about. The Bible says that God's people would be "a people for his name." (Acts 15:14) Since God's name is Jehovah, we can ask people if Jehovah is their God. If they say no, then we know that they are not God's people {so, in other words my own children should not listen to me}...."

  I don't think there is much to add. This is obviously an attempt to demonize everyone who is not a Jehovah's Witness and to subtly encourage isolation from all other groups of people.

  pg 241, this is the last one I'm going to bring up today because I'm running out of time here. It is a picture of some families at what looks like a beach or water park or something, having a good time together. The caption reads, "Why should we not just be thinking about having fun?" Good grief. These poor kids. A portion of the surrounding article entitled, "Water Destroys a World -- Will it Happen Again?":

  "Now, remember, Jesus said that what happened to those people [the flood] is a lesson for us today. What lesson can we learn?-- Well, people were destroyed not only because they were bad but because many were just too busy to take the time to learn about God and what he was going to do. We need to be careful that we are not like them, don't we?"

  Amazing!! How they can take every little bit of pleasure that a child could have in their life and try to make them feel guilty for it. I have read time and time again on here how many say they never felt like anything they ever did was enough. I can see why. The pictures and the captions alone from this book speak multitudes.

  Comments welcome. If anyone has access to a scanner, feel free to post pics and articles. Any advice on my current situation is EXTREMELY welcome, as well....

  Sadie
• 

  sf

  Thanks for the courage to share your personal life and that of your KIDS PERSONAL HELL.

  Here you say:

  Recently, my kids have started this "mommy I don't want you to die" stuff and telling me that "I need to know about Jehovah and wickedness", the latter coming from my 5-year-old daughter. I can only imagine the junk that is being pummeled into their tiny impressionable little minds by my husband. I am trying to determine which would be more traumatic for my children: the possiblity of rarely seeing their father (I say possibility because even if I do try to gain full custody with minimal visitation for him, I may not get it), or growing up having their mom and everyone around them demonized constantly, having to contend with the guilt that this religion loads on its followers,and having their conscience seared to the point that they question whether or not they should join the YMCA, have a girlfriend, have a friend who is not a witness, do a worksheet passed out in class because it has a christmas tree on it, or be around me because I am agnostic...and my god is not "Jehovah".

  THIS IS ABUSE TO THE SPIRIT AND MIND! You must fight for these kids. You must show your attorney and the judge this lethal book. They must WITNESS its contents and conTEXT.

  I feel for you to a degree, yet see no reason why you would ever not fight to get those kids out of his control now AFTER SEEING THE RESULTS OF THOSE KIDS BEING SPIRITUALLY RAPED BY THIS ORGANIZATIONS TEACHINGS, DOCTRINES AND LETHAL POLICIES.

  Nevermind the damned insane book, what about when they need emergency blood transfusion; and their names are on the bloodcard?

  If you don't fight to get those kids out of his custody, I see you as 50 percent responsible for allowing the result of the 'rape' to continue to 'penetrate' their souls.

  THIS DEADLY ORGANIZATION KEEPS GOING ON AND ON WITH ITS TERRORISM. WHY?? WHY DOESN'T THE WORLD REALLY WANT TO SEE WHAT THE WATCHTOWER IS ALL ABOUT? I AM AT MY WITS HERE IN COMPREHENDING WHY THIS LITERATURE IS ALLOWED IN THE HANDS OF CHILDREN, LET ALONE GROWN ADULTS.

  sKally, too honest for ya? TRUTH IS RAW AND UGLY, klass
• 

  LeslieV

  Dear Sadie,

  Thanks for posting what you and your poor children are dealing with. I was in the same situation, the only difference was that I wanted the divorce. My ex is still the PO of the local borg here. I went through a custody battle with him. It was not pleasant but my children are completely free from that harmful religion.

  My youngest who was 5 at the time did not even listen to me her father had her convinced since I did not love Jehovah anymore that I did not love her. Also since I was going to die than there was no reason that she should have to obey me. Needless to say it was a nightmare. I put up with this and kept bringing the "world" that was denied to them into their lives. I have three daughters. DO NOT LET THIS MAN MAKE YOU FEEL RESPONSIBLE!!!!!!!! They are really good at it. They make you feel like you have to make sure that they are in your children's life.

  You need a lawyer fast. The first visit usually is free. I am not sure what state you are in, but laws do vary from state to state. If he wants a divorce make him leave the house. Then you need to go to local Department of Social Services for help. Or if your husband is working you need child support and maintenance for yourself. You local department of social services will go after your husband for child support and maintenance for free. Call around PLEASE find out your rights. He has overwhelmed you so that you feel like he has all the control. I am here to tell you that that is not the case. Call your local Legal Aid for assistance.

  If you ever need to talk please email me [email protected]

  Good luck to you please keep us updated on this. I will be thinking of you and the kids.

  Leslie
• 

  expatbrit

  Hello Bona Dea:

  Run, don't walk, to the yellow pages and find a family lawyer who can give you some advice.

  Also, begin recording instances of when your children say things like "Mom, I don't want you do die at Armageddon" and shite like that. Write it down, record the time etc. Even better, why not get them to write it down for you. Ask them to write down why they think you are going to die.

  Start collecting materials. Get a copy of the new WT book. Get a copy of the Child Custody booklet that shows how the WT are deceptive in court. Get hold of WT materials that show how they f*** up the minds of kids with pictures of Armageddon etc.

  Your objective is to demonstrate to any judge that, while the Father is perfectly free to practice his religion, it will be a stress and trauma causing factor in the lives of your children, and therefore that factor must be removed in the best interests of the children. That is the overriding concern.

  Expatbrit
• 

  sf

  while the Father is perfectly free to practice his religion

  THE WATCHTOWER/ JW SOCIETY ISN'T A RELIGION PEOPLE!!

  IT IS A BOOK PUBLISHING EMPIRE STRATEGICALLY DESIGNED TO 'LOOK LIKE RELIGION'!!

  THIS IS WHAT THIS WORLDS LEADERS, JUDGES, ATTORNEYS, TEACHERS, ETC. NEED TO COMPREHEND, GRASP FULLY...BURN IT IN THEIR BRAINS!!

  What ever happened to "INNOCULATING THE MASSES"?

  This is just one of many cases that kids are living now. This isn't about bona. It's about those kids!!! It's about what bona WILL DO TO ACT on behalf of her kids sanity and spiritual welfare. She has a lot of footwork ahead of her. She better get real focused and set some goals FOR SAVING HER KIDS LIVES!

  The mistake as I see many make is thinking that this is a RELIGION. It is far from that, as exhaustive research and homework will SHOW YOU AND JUDGES AND LAWYERS AND POLITICIANS AD INFINITUM!!!!!

  sKally
• 

  mizpah

  Your situation is similar to one that I knew. The husband became a JW. The wife studied for a while but came to the conclusion that it was not the truth. She began to attend another church with her children. The wife really didn't want to break up the marriage because of the children. But the conflict in the house over religion became too intense. Finally, they decided on an agreed on a separation. She had the custody of the children. But they still brought the children to their meetings and services. The young woman met regularly with her minister for counsel.

  This young man had a very successful business career and became a potential "catch" for some young women in the congregation. The elders began to follow the whereabouts of his wife by sending out their "congregation spies." Because she frequented the house of her minister when he was alone, they concluded that she was having an affair. The elders decided that he had "scriptural grounds" for a divorce. The divorce wasn't even "cold" when he married a sister in the congregation. He began to legally fight for the custody of his children.

  The strange outcome of all this was that she met with her former husband and his new wife. She laid out the terms that she wanted regarding the custody. The new wife fully agreed to them. And that was the end of the bitter struggle between the both of them.

  The strange part of it is that the elders and their spies didn't see any acts of adultery firsthand. But they reached a decision by "circumstantial evidence." Yet, in the child abuse cases, the elders refuse to take the world of only "one" witness even when circumstantial evidence abounds.
• 

  JCanon

  Hi Bona...

  I feel so badly about your situation. Breaking up the family is not easy.

  But I will offer you this. The WTS Biblical doctrine is quite strong since they do, indeed, have more Biblical truth than Christendom. However, the GB, per my belief, has been abandoned now for spiritual unfaithfulness. But you need a critical insider-Biblical defense to challenge their doctrines. My thought is that if you simply "ask" for an explanation scripturally, holding onto their own view that the Bible must be true and all others liars, then you will have some psychological and spiritual reason for not actually buying into the witness cult 100% based upon a Biblical basis.

  The only DANGER here is, this might destroy the faith of your husband in the Bible and/or the organization, so it must be used wisely. Of course, if he is really a J-dud, he won't care what the Bible says and even if he sees a discrepancy between Bible and Watchtower, he'll choose the Watchtower or choose to close his eyes. This is a normal human response when you think you've found the "true religion" and you're holding on for dear life.

  On the other hand, if you understand the TRUTH in scripture and how the WTS is teaching lies, you can realistically resist and challenge your husband's position only it won't be him and the Bible vs you, you'll have the Bible on your side. It might even things out if it's a matter of Biblical truth vs fiction. Anyway, here are the key scriptures. And again, you should present this as a question requiring explanation from them. You don't need to take a stand on this doctrine. The doctrine will become self evident.

  The 70 years, when?

  This is a simple Bible truth the witnesses can't get out of but it's deep since it will affect their 1914 doctrine which is core to their beliefs, plus even if they admit that you are correct about this doctrine, it will make them question why the GB didn't get this first and put it out there as "new light" before you did. Here's the challenge:

  The WTS teaches that 70 years of desolation occurred beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 607BCE. They even quote Josephus to help confirm the Jews understood these 70 years to be a literal 70 years. But, the Jews date their 70 years from the last deportation in the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar, 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem. This means their doctrine about the 70 years and 607BCE are wrong by 4 years.

  The scripture you need to present is: Jeremiah 52:30 which talks about the last deportation in the 23rd year. Ask your husband whether or not he was aware that they were still deporting people from Judea up until the 23rd year? And if so, how could the land be considered to have been desolate if there were still people in it?

  Then add that it is your undersanding that the people who were deported at the last deportation, were those people, INCLUDING JEREMIAH who had run down to Egypt, but the Bible says they were to return to Judah after Nebuchadnezzar slaughtered most of them. The key texts are: Jeremiah 44:14 and 28.

  Verse 28 says:

  And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of egypt to the land of Judah, few in number, and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming ot the land of Egypt to reside tehre as alines, will certainly know whose words comes true, that from me or that from them."

  Okay. Now. So that you understand it. Basically, Jerusalem was destroyed in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar but he left the "poor people" in the land to work the harvests and the land. Governor Gedaliah was placed over them but was killed and these few Jews ran down to Egypt and refused to return. Jeremiah was with them, kidnapped. God told them he would send a sword to destroy them by Nebuchadnezzar and he did leaving very few alive and these few would then return to Judah. But per Josephus these were deported the same year they left Egypt, thus they likely just stopped in Judah for a short time on their way to being deported to Babylon. It was after this final campaign by Neubchadnezzar in the 23rd year that the entire was finally left desolate and the 70 years began.

  Now your husband probably doesn't know about these scriptures or have examined them together to focus on exactly when the 70 years began. But once he realizes this, he will be trapped, because he can't explain to you why the witnesses are teaching the 70 years began in the 19th year when the Bible and Josephus say differently.

  Ordinarily, this might just be one of those minor Biblical points that don't matter...but in this case, since 1914 is connected with it, to correct it would mean the fall of the 1914 doctrine. And it will fall since the critical event holding 1914 together is World War I beginning that year which made it easy to attach all kinds of Biblical significance to that year. But if they have to move the fall of Jerusalem up 4 years, as they must if they use the 607BCE chronology, then it will move back 4 years to 611BCE meaning the true end of the 2520 years per the Bible ended in 1910 and not 1914. Of course, what significantly occurred in 1910? Nothing.

  Your husband will either get angry and want to bury this under the carpet. Or he'll go to the elders and ask them about this and that will start a snowball effect since they won't be able to answer it either. But they will know that you are being honest and that they are wrong and that will give you some dignity of defense for rejecting them since they are not being honest as far as teaching what is in the Bible, therefore, how can they condemn you? But on a deeper level, it will start to seep in and make them realize that 1914 is the wrong date and that the WTS wasn't shown this by God and thus...what does that really mean?

  You should teach your children this also. It's what the BIBLE says...it's just not what the Watchtower says.

  Remember, again, you can't win trying to get between false doctrines of Christendom or debatable issues like the blood issue. That's because the witnesses are closer to the Bible's true understanding than any. What you must do is find those things that are incorrect between the Bible and the witnesses' beliefs, and that's where your true edge is. That is what the above is. You are standing up for critical Biblical truth and dismissing falsehood and they are for once on the other end of that scenario.

  Then your husband can't blame you because if he supports the organization anyway, inspite of the false teaching, it will be him that is the hypocrit and not you.

  The following reference from Josephus might prove handy. It's where he is showing the 70 years began when the poor people went off the land, that is, the last deportation. The witnesses quote Josephus about the 70 years. You can simply state that you understand the WTS uses Josephus as a reference for the 70 years but according to Josephus, the 70 years begin at the last deportation in the 23rd year, not the 19th year, the year Jerusalem fell.

  Thus, if this is true, that the 70 years didn't really begin until the 23rd year and the land wasn't desolated until then, then why are the witnesses teaching their children lies about this otherwise? And if this is "new light", why is it that they haven't been shown this by Jehovah? Which raises the question as to whether Jehovah is disciplining the GB for some reason, etc.

  You may not understand everything else in the Bible, but as long as you can prove the witnesses maintain one lie then you have a reason to doubt them, right? It just takes one false teaching. Onlyin this case it goes to the core of 1914 so they can't correct it. And it doesn't matter if they are right about everything else. Most religions get 95% of the Bible right. It's the 5% differences that everybody faces off on.

  IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon. God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things God did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus and made him write this throughout all Asia "Thus saith Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty hath appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem in the country of Judea."

  Again, this is a very special GEM unlike any other challenge. It's easy and direct but profound and saves you from debating any other topic. Once you establish this false doctrine, no other witness can "demonize" you or look down on you for being an apostate, since you will be accusing them of being false, organization worshipers and non-Biblical. They can't look down on you if you are standing up for precise Biblical truth and they want to water it down and compromise. That's where they have YOU now. You can now turn the tables on them!!

  Best regards and I hope all works out well. You have no reason to feel "guilty" Biblically now. Your husband can't get out of this one--nor the elders, nor all the circuit overseers in the universe and not the GB!.

  JCanon
• 

  FreeFallin

  He was baptized at the July convention. Two weeks before he was baptized he told me he was no longer happy, and he thought we needed to seek divorce, but he would give me time to find a job

  WTF!!! Since when does happiness have anything to do with a witness marriage....... How is he able to get baptized, knowing he was planning on divorcing you? Have things changed that much in the Borg?

  Free
• 

  Nathan Natas

  You might want to get a copy of the "Preparing For Child Custody Cases" booklet. You can read about it here:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/54364/1.ashx
• 

  Bona Dea

  Thank you for all you comments.

  Nathan,

  I've read that. Actually, I've downloaded it onto my desktop. I think I'll print and hide it somewhere.

  sKally,

  I see your point...but is it realistic? I live in the United States. Around here, abeit how unpopular JWs are, they are recognized as a "religion" and are just as entitled to teach their children their beliefs as anyone. While I agree that although a parent has a right to teach their children whatever they wish, it is my opinion there is a fine line that separates unacceptable from acceptable, and unfortunately, most courts don't view the beliefs of JWs as being "unacceptable". If they begin taking the rights away from parents because of the cruelty their children may have to endure because of their beliefs or religions, who then would be safe from the court system? The strict Muslim, hindus, etc, who do not conform to American culture and make their children wear the garb, do their mantras, etc...are they being cruel? Do they not have a right to teach their children their beliefs and culture? I am not defending the JWs, but I'm just trying to be practical. This is just, realistically speaking, the type of analogies JWs would try to draw. How do you debunk that? You make some very valid points. I just don't think I can financially go up against WT lawyers for one thing...and I'm afraid it might would come to that if I bring this religion into it. And I do see the harmful affects this religion can have on a child's mental and physical (the blood issue) security, stability, health...and I do want to protect my kids from that. I just don't know which is the best strategy to use in order to accomplish this.

  I posted my story here because I want to be sure that I am trying to be fair, and when I read this new book, it frightened me. I have been (ever since I stopped attending the meetings and such) simply telling my kids that I just don't agree with what the JWs teach anymore. But the JWs are indirectly, with their manipulative literature and "christian meetings" chocked full of crafty wording, teaching my children that I can't be trusted because I am not one of them. They are completely undermining my authority and guidance as a parent. It is really difficult to determine your ability to be fair when you feel angry, betrayed, violated, scared, alone... I just didn't know if it is really fair for me to attempt to take these kids away from him because of his misguided trust and complete faith in this publishing company...because I don't want this crap taught to my kids, because I can see how unhealthy their teachings and demands are. But I've also seen the statistics of kids from broken homes, where the father practically disappears completely from their lives. And I'm trying to unbiasedly determine which is the worst case scenario:: Stay with dad sometimes; time with dad spent being indoctrinated into his little cult (emphasize sometimes because his time would them would probably, at most, be every other weekend -- he is, BTW, wanting EVERY weekend with them...I told him to keep dreaming...a cold day in hell, my friend) OR try to keep kids away from the influence of dad and his cohorts as much as possible and risk my kids growing up being juvenile delinquents because of the lack of a father figure in their lives.

  Fortunately, my son is the product of another relationship...and my husband has no legal rights to him what-so-ever. He [husband] has expressed that he wants to continue seeing my son. He has been the only father my son has known. My son was only 4 mos old when my husband and I began dating, and he was 8 mos old when we were married, so my son has never known a time without my husband being his dad. My husband has offered to pay child support for my son, although he is not bound to do so, just so he could see him too. My mom has made the comment that I should tell my husband, "I'm sorry, but it's bad enough I have to share my daughter; I'm not about to pimp my son out to you!!" I thought I would let my son decide whether he wants to see my husband or not. To some degree, I feel like he [my son] probably won't want to see him. My son is very sensitive to the things going on around him. He is not dumb to the situation. I don't think he's too happy about "the truth" either, and I'm pretty sure he sees the problems that have resulted from mom and dad being exposed to it. But I don't know. I may just refuse to let him go, and then bear the burden of my son being angry at me.

  Thanks again for the advice.

  Leslie, thanks for sharing those resources. I hadn't even thought about them.

  Sadie