Sea Breeze - is there free will in heaven? Is there evil in heaven?
Providing salvation is not that important
by pixel 42 Replies latest watchtower bible
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cofty
Pete Zahut - No JW thinks of Jesus' agony as physical punishment suffered vicariously for what they deserve for the things they do wrong every day.
Ask a JW why Jesus died and they will pontificate about Adam.
The difference between a christian understanding of soteriology and the Watchtower doctrine is chalk and cheese.
ETA - For the sake of conversation I am parking the issue of whether any of this actually happened. That is a different topic.
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JoenB75
Cofty,
Maybe I should clarify I meant what atheism sees as the biggest problem in relation to theism. I am sure you will agree the existence of evil realities is something atheists use in their preaching. Children die of starvation and so it is absurd to believe God hears prayers. So evil fates and our meditation concerning it make the existence of God impossible / absurd.
I am happy to say I have never believed in free will nor do I know what it is. God chooses, appoints, elects. Creation run its course and God intervenes. We are products of many conditions.
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cofty
Children die of starvation and so it is absurd to believe God hears prayers - Joen
Christians have plenty of facile answers to challenges of this sort.
On the other hand natural evil proves beyond all doubt that the god of christian theism does not exist.
God chooses, appoints, elects. Creation run its course and God intervenes. We are products.
A particularly pernicious version of theism that is internally contradictory.
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JoenB75
Cofty
"On the other hand natural evil proves beyond all doubt that the god of christian theism does not exist."
"A particularly pernicious version of theism that is internally contradictory."
Two awesome claims. Please enlighten me as to how
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cofty
1 - Natural evil was the topic of the longest thread ever on this forum.
The OP is here ...
A summary of the topic is here...
and of the main arguments here ...2 - A god who is imminent in the way you describe is incompatible with the God who is love described by Jesus.
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truth_b_known
“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” - C.S. Lewis (Theist/Former Atheist)
“There is no answer to the question, ‘Why not be cruel?’” - Richard Rorty (Atheist)
What is "evil," "pain," and "suffering" but subjective personal experiences if the universe "just is"? How can you condemn a god for things that don't exist? How can you deny the existence of once thing based on something that is a subjective feeling or personal experience?
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cofty
truth - Why do you claim that subjective experiences don't exist? If somebody murdered your family is your pain not real?
Please don't use Richard Rorty as a spokesman for rational atheists. He is an anti-realist postmodern philosopher who eschews reason and rationality.
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nowwhat?
If the vindication of Jehovah's sovereignty is so important. Why wasn't it included in the lords prayer?
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cofty
nowwhat - What is the first line of the Lord's prayer?